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#1
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Greatful for this group
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 11:49:20 AM UTC-7, James Betker wrote:
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 10:31:23 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote: Effen LOL! On 10/19/2018 10:35 AM, Papa3 wrote: On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote: I had to look it up.Â* Guess I'm not "hip" any more... On 10/18/2018 5:16 PM, Tango Eight wrote: On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote: Most power(only) pilots are NPCs. :7| T8 -- Dan, 5J The very fact that you used the word "hip" means that, by definition, you are not hip :-) Word. -- Dan, 5J I think you're expecting a bit much. That question isn't simple by any means - it's pretty close to the classic "how do wings generate lift" question. E.g. it's full people tripping over other people saying the wrong words but thinking the same things. Anyone with time in a overpowered aircraft or even a powerful model airplane knows that when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises. This is because flight in general is an energy state equation. If you add more energy into the system either speed or altitude is going to need to increase and in most cases both do. Surely, the fastest way to get it is to transfer potential energy into kinetic with the pitch control. I'm sure if you changed the question: "what is the fastest way to increase airspeed?", more pilots would answer your question "correctly". Granted - it does seem that most powered (only) guys don't understand the three types of energy and how they relate to one another. Maybe this is what you guys are talking about. "when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises." I would respectfully submit that when you add throttle you climb, you pitch to remain at constant altitude which is why the airspeed goes up? I know in a T-33 I would rather depend on pitch than power to recover from impending stall, same with T-6,.... gliders, helicopters. |
#2
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Greatful for this group
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 8:44:46 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 11:49:20 AM UTC-7, James Betker wrote: On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 10:31:23 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote: Effen LOL! On 10/19/2018 10:35 AM, Papa3 wrote: On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote: I had to look it up.Â* Guess I'm not "hip" any more... On 10/18/2018 5:16 PM, Tango Eight wrote: On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote: Most power(only) pilots are NPCs. :7| T8 -- Dan, 5J The very fact that you used the word "hip" means that, by definition, you are not hip :-) Word. -- Dan, 5J I think you're expecting a bit much. That question isn't simple by any means - it's pretty close to the classic "how do wings generate lift" question. E.g. it's full people tripping over other people saying the wrong words but thinking the same things. Anyone with time in a overpowered aircraft or even a powerful model airplane knows that when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises. This is because flight in general is an energy state equation. If you add more energy into the system either speed or altitude is going to need to increase and in most cases both do. Surely, the fastest way to get it is to transfer potential energy into kinetic with the pitch control. I'm sure if you changed the question: "what is the fastest way to increase airspeed?", more pilots would answer your question "correctly". Granted - it does seem that most powered (only) guys don't understand the three types of energy and how they relate to one another. Maybe this is what you guys are talking about. "when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises." I would respectfully submit that when you add throttle you climb, you pitch to remain at constant altitude which is why the airspeed goes up? I know in a T-33 I would rather depend on pitch than power to recover from impending stall, same with T-6,... gliders, helicopters. I'm not an aerodynamicist, so I can't say for sure. I just know from what experience I have that planes seem to speed up AND climb when power is added.. I'm sure there's an equation out there somewhere.. Totally agree with you about pitch. Not saying your question has no merit, just that it is worded in a way that might confuse some folks. |
#3
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Greatful for this group
I recall from my Air Force training, a drawing of the total lift curve
and the position of the aircraft along it, and the explanation went something like this: When power is applied, the aircraft speed increases causing, an increase in lift, which causes the aircraft to climb at the trimmed speed.Â* Reduce power and the speed decreases causing a decrease in lift, which causes the aircraft to descend at the trimmed speed.Â* In either case, the speed change was only momentary.Â* If the position of the flight controls is not changed, power controls altitude. On 10/21/2018 9:15 AM, James Betker wrote: On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 8:44:46 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote: On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 11:49:20 AM UTC-7, James Betker wrote: On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 10:31:23 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote: Effen LOL! On 10/19/2018 10:35 AM, Papa3 wrote: On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote: I had to look it up.Â* Guess I'm not "hip" any more... On 10/18/2018 5:16 PM, Tango Eight wrote: On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote: Most power(only) pilots are NPCs. :7| T8 -- Dan, 5J The very fact that you used the word "hip" means that, by definition, you are not hip :-) Word. -- Dan, 5J I think you're expecting a bit much. That question isn't simple by any means - it's pretty close to the classic "how do wings generate lift" question. E.g. it's full people tripping over other people saying the wrong words but thinking the same things. Anyone with time in a overpowered aircraft or even a powerful model airplane knows that when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises. This is because flight in general is an energy state equation. If you add more energy into the system either speed or altitude is going to need to increase and in most cases both do. Surely, the fastest way to get it is to transfer potential energy into kinetic with the pitch control. I'm sure if you changed the question: "what is the fastest way to increase airspeed?", more pilots would answer your question "correctly". Granted - it does seem that most powered (only) guys don't understand the three types of energy and how they relate to one another. Maybe this is what you guys are talking about. "when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises." I would respectfully submit that when you add throttle you climb, you pitch to remain at constant altitude which is why the airspeed goes up? I know in a T-33 I would rather depend on pitch than power to recover from impending stall, same with T-6,... gliders, helicopters. I'm not an aerodynamicist, so I can't say for sure. I just know from what experience I have that planes seem to speed up AND climb when power is added. I'm sure there's an equation out there somewhere.. Totally agree with you about pitch. Not saying your question has no merit, just that it is worded in a way that might confuse some folks. -- Dan, 5J |
#4
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Greatful for this group
On 10/21/2018 9:37 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
I recall from my Air Force training, a drawing of the total lift curve and the position of the aircraft along it, and the explanation went something like this: When power is applied, the aircraft speed increases causing, an increase in lift, which causes the aircraft to climb at the trimmed speed. Reduce power and the speed decreases causing a decrease in lift, which causes the aircraft to descend at the trimmed speed.Â* In either case, the speed change was only momentary.Â* If the position of the flight controls is not changed, power controls altitude. On 10/21/2018 9:15 AM, James Betker wrote: Snip of intervening discussion... "when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises."Â* I would respectfully submit that when you add throttle you climb, you pitch to remain at constant altitude which is why the airspeed goes up?Â* I know in a T-33 I would rather depend on pitch than power to recover from impending stall, same with T-6,... gliders, helicopters. I'm not an aerodynamicist, so I can't say for sure. I just know from what experience I have that planes seem to speed up AND climb when power is added. I'm sure there's an equation out there somewhere.. Totally agree with you about pitch. Not saying your question has no merit, just that it is worded in a way that might confuse some folks. Dern Dan, your USAF instructors would be proud and gratified to learn you were paying attention! FWIW, your understanding is the same one I obtained via obtaining an aerospace engineering degree - lotsa graphs! - and subsequent decades of self-education. My sense is a lot of pilots tend to (overlook? not-well-grasp?) the sheer dynamic transience of the phenomenon of a wing generating lift in a dynamic medium (air) inter-acting with Joe Pilot's inputs (via stick/throttle/spoilers/etc.). Bob W. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com |
#5
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Greatful for this group
The original question, "Airspeed, controlled by power or pitch?", surely
has one correct answer: "yes". ;-) |
#6
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Greatful for this group
In a 747 on approach I use pitch for glide angle and thrust for speed, in a glider I don’t.
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#7
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Greatful for this group
Pitch vs power is a lot more subtle than just pushing the throttle up or pushing the stick forward to speed up; the real answer (IMHO) is "it depends on where on the L/D curve you are". At high speeds and level flight, power is the primary speed control, and unless you are flying an F-16 or Airbus, you will have to adjust your pitch (usually with trim) to compensate for the tendency to climb as speed increases. If you are slow, however, and on the backside of the L/D curve, then pitch has a much greater role in airspeed (actually, AOA) control, while power serves to adjust rate of descent or to maintain altitude, and has much less effect on speed. So on approach, you control your speed with the stick (and trim for the speed), while using power (or the dive brakes in gliders) to adjust you sink rate for the desires approach path.
From personal experience, this works in everything from 2-33s to F-15s. "Stick and Rudder" covers it well, I believe... Kirk 66 |
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