Instructor Effectiveness

On Sep 12, 3:31*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:

It's important to note that not cursing at a student is not to be
misconstrued into meaning that an instructor is being "too nice".
The way this issue has been presented by the original poster would infer
that through the use of his description countering his argument in favor
of his personal method. Instructors NOT cursing at students are
absolutely NOT being "too nice" by NOT cursing at students! This premise
if assumed is false.

I've also had instructors and examiners who would hit you on the hand
or shoulder when they didn't like something you were doing. Aside from
rubbing close shoulders there is no reason to touch your students in
the cockpit.

-Robert, CFII

On Sep 12, 7:44*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
On Sep 12, 1:57*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:

I am a very up front person as you know after all these years. If I
think profanity is called for to make a point, I'll use it. If it
offends someone, that is to be confronted by us that are involved.

I try to explain this to my kids. People don't mind if their plumber
shows up in a dirty tee shirt and with a dirty mouth because he's a
plumber. Now imagine if you walked into your Dr's office and your Dr
had on a dirty tee shirt and had a dirty mouth. People look at how
people present themselves and decide how educated and competent they
are for the job. This is why airline pilots wear silly hats and boards
on their shoulders. When you act like a plumber with your students
they will question whether or not they really want a plumber showing
them how to fly.

-Robert

Speaking of language and hobbies --- I played golf with a minister not
so long ago, and asked him after he made a bad stroke how he restrains
himself from expressing himself the way some of us do. He said there
is plenty of scripture he can quite that fits golf (and I'm thinking
flight instruction) quite nicely.

I would point out that calling someone an 'anal sphincter' is a
classy way of expressing your opinion.

Robert M. Gary wrote:
On Sep 12, 3:31 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:

It's important to note that not cursing at a student is not to be
misconstrued into meaning that an instructor is being "too nice".
The way this issue has been presented by the original poster would infer
that through the use of his description countering his argument in favor
of his personal method. Instructors NOT cursing at students are
absolutely NOT being "too nice" by NOT cursing at students! This premise
if assumed is false.

I've also had instructors and examiners who would hit you on the hand
or shoulder when they didn't like something you were doing. Aside from
rubbing close shoulders there is no reason to touch your students in
the cockpit.

-Robert, CFII

I agree. My preferred method is to gauge the way I project with a
student based on my read on that specific student's ability to receive
what I'm projecting and the tone with which I'm projecting it.
This method of controlling "tone" is very important in the teaching
cockpit, as the "classroom" is moving and all instruction is being given
while this dynamic environment is on going.
It's fine to upscale the tone of a verbal exchange with a student to
stress necessity and/or a time constraint, but this raising of the
"tone" by the instructor should never in my opinion cross the line that
separates the need for action from abuse. Shouting and/or cursing at a
student in the cockpit in my opinion adds to the student's stress level
and degrades their performance.
What I'm stressing here is that not cursing at a student goes MUCH
further than the respect issue. It's actually a quality of instruction
issue and as such I place it high on the list of things that instructors
should learn to do correctly.

--
Dudley Henriques

On Sep 12, 5:01*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:

What I'm stressing here is that not cursing at a student goes MUCH
further than the respect issue. It's actually a quality of instruction
issue and as such I place it high on the list of things that instructors
should learn to do correctly.

Generally agreed, but I would argue that you can't have quality of
instruction without respect.

-Robert

Robert M. Gary wrote:
On Sep 12, 5:01 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:

What I'm stressing here is that not cursing at a student goes MUCH
further than the respect issue. It's actually a quality of instruction
issue and as such I place it high on the list of things that instructors
should learn to do correctly.

Generally agreed, but I would argue that you can't have quality of
instruction without respect.

-Robert

I agree, and I would counter that you don't have to shout or curse at a
student to gain that respect. In fact, with most students, that is
EXACTLY the fastest way to LOSE that respect.
Most students want their instructors to be thorough, concise,
knowledgeable, friendly, and above all, professional at all times.
Achieving this relationship with a student can easily be done without
being a "pussy", while on the other hand, shouting and cursing at a
student negates enough of the prime good teaching requisites I've
mentioned to eliminate these two factors from any competent instruction
method and classify them as a negative.

--
Dudley Henriques

On Sep 12, 2:01*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:
Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
out in the field when they go operational.
What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
student learning.
Should be interesting to discuss.
Ol S&B
CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967

I have noticed that students typically want to be good pilots. They
know when they've made a bad landing, and they are willing to look at
themselves critically to improve their skill. If the student makes a
bad landing, they don't need me there pounding it into their head
constantly. If I were to do that, all I'm doing is making them more
frustrated, which is making it harder for them to focus and learn.

Also, I think sometimes people confuse "strictness" with "harshness".
You can still hold high standards and strive for perfection without
being harsh or rude. A lot of less experienced instructors will say to
themselves "I want to be an instructor that holds high standards", so
they'll go out and just constantly bitch at anything and everything
the student does thats less than perfect. Some students will react
like "Oh wow I really need to turn it up here", while other students
(in my opinion, most students), will respond with "this guy has
problems, I wish he would just shut up"

On Sep 12, 8:38*pm, buttman wrote:
On Sep 12, 2:01*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:



Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
out in the field when they go operational.
What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
student learning.
Should be interesting to discuss.
Ol S&B
CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967

I have noticed that students typically want to be good pilots. They
know when they've made a bad landing, and they are willing to look at
themselves critically to improve their skill. If the student makes a
bad landing, they don't need me there pounding it into their head
constantly. If I were to do that, all I'm doing is making them more
frustrated, which is making it harder for them to focus and learn.

Also, I think sometimes people confuse "strictness" with "harshness".
You can still hold high standards and strive for perfection without
being harsh or rude. A lot of less experienced instructors will say to
themselves "I want to be an instructor that holds high standards", so
they'll go out and just constantly bitch at anything and everything
the student does thats less than perfect. Some students will react
like "Oh wow I really need to turn it up here", while other students
(in my opinion, most students), will respond with "this guy has
problems, I wish he would just shut up"

The other alternative for a student is much more effective: "You're
fired." It is not used enough,not just with CFIs but with MDs and
others

buttman wrote:
On Sep 12, 2:01 pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:
Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
out in the field when they go operational.
What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
student learning.
Should be interesting to discuss.
Ol S&B
CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967

I have noticed that students typically want to be good pilots. They
know when they've made a bad landing, and they are willing to look at
themselves critically to improve their skill. If the student makes a
bad landing, they don't need me there pounding it into their head
constantly. If I were to do that, all I'm doing is making them more
frustrated, which is making it harder for them to focus and learn.

Also, I think sometimes people confuse "strictness" with "harshness".
You can still hold high standards and strive for perfection without
being harsh or rude. A lot of less experienced instructors will say to
themselves "I want to be an instructor that holds high standards", so
they'll go out and just constantly bitch at anything and everything
the student does thats less than perfect. Some students will react
like "Oh wow I really need to turn it up here", while other students
(in my opinion, most students), will respond with "this guy has
problems, I wish he would just shut up"

Good post and good input Butts.

--
Dudley Henriques

a wrote:
On Sep 12, 8:38 pm, buttman wrote:
On Sep 12, 2:01 pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:



Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
out in the field when they go operational.
What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
student learning.
Should be interesting to discuss.
Ol S&B
CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967
I have noticed that students typically want to be good pilots. They
know when they've made a bad landing, and they are willing to look at
themselves critically to improve their skill. If the student makes a
bad landing, they don't need me there pounding it into their head
constantly. If I were to do that, all I'm doing is making them more
frustrated, which is making it harder for them to focus and learn.

Also, I think sometimes people confuse "strictness" with "harshness".
You can still hold high standards and strive for perfection without
being harsh or rude. A lot of less experienced instructors will say to
themselves "I want to be an instructor that holds high standards", so
they'll go out and just constantly bitch at anything and everything
the student does thats less than perfect. Some students will react
like "Oh wow I really need to turn it up here", while other students
(in my opinion, most students), will respond with "this guy has
problems, I wish he would just shut up"

The other alternative for a student is much more effective: "You're
fired." It is not used enough,not just with CFIs but with MDs and
others

This is true, and addresses the respect issue. On the quality of
instruction issue, it's incumbent on the instructor to see that this
step is never necessary.

--
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...


This is true, and addresses the respect issue. On the quality of
instruction issue, it's incumbent on the instructor to see that this step
is never necessary.

--
Dudley Henriques


I think Dudley is on the right track. I too have thousands of hours of
instruction given and have never said a profane word to a student. I don't
remember seeing this tactic in the Flight Instructor Handbook. I think this
goes beyond instructing and indicates character on the part of the
instructor. One also has to remember that you are representing the
profession. It's not a question of effectiveness. It's a question of doing
the right thing.

--
Regards, Bob F.