Some bad controllers

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Doug" wrote in message
om...

Yeah, and if you DIDN'T flile a flightplan, tell 'em you did, at a FSS
Far, Far Away.


Why?


So you can hear the magic words "Unable IFR clearance, and remain outside
Phoenix Class Bravo Airspace..."


Chip, ZTL

Mike Rapoport wrote:

Most of the traffic
over Buckeye is probably coming from Los Angeles not Las Vegas

No doubt about that.

Taking a different track, so i changed the thread/subject line...

If you are on a composite flight plan (VFR, then IFR) who is responsible for
closing the VFR portion of the plan? If the VFR plan is not closed (with
FSS if a true VFR plan) then SAR will be initiated if they cannot get hold
of you within an hour or two.

How does this work with a composite flight plan?



On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 15:39:17 -0800, Jeff wrote:

Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

Jay Somerset wrote:
Taking a different track, so i changed the thread/subject line...

If you are on a composite flight plan (VFR, then IFR) who is responsible for
closing the VFR portion of the plan? If the VFR plan is not closed (with
FSS if a true VFR plan) then SAR will be initiated if they cannot get hold
of you within an hour or two.

How does this work with a composite flight plan?

The pilot is responsible for contacting FSS and closing the VFR portion of the
flight plan.

DGB
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

The answer to your question as well as to the general question of who is
responsible for closing any flight plan is: The pilot-in-command

Though generally speaking when you land at a towered airport they usually
close your IFR flight plan for you,,, but it is more a courtesy rather than
something they are 'responsible' for,,, so-to-speak. In the end it is the
responsibility of the PIC

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message
. com...

Though generally speaking when you land at a towered airport they
usually close your IFR flight plan for you,,, but it is more a courtesy
rather than something they are 'responsible' for,,, so-to-speak. In
the end it is the responsibility of the PIC


When you land at a towered field in the US your IFR flight plan is closed
automatically. ATC takes no action to close it, it's closed simply because
you've arrived at your clearance limit. Action is taken only if you don't
arrive - a search is started.

??? So, the process is 'automated' in some way? What ATC and/or pilot
action toggles the action to closure?

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message
. com...

Though generally speaking when you land at a towered airport they
usually close your IFR flight plan for you,,, but it is more a courtesy
rather than something they are 'responsible' for,,, so-to-speak. In
the end it is the responsibility of the PIC


When you land at a towered field in the US your IFR flight plan is closed
automatically. ATC takes no action to close it, it's closed simply
because
you've arrived at your clearance limit. Action is taken only if you don't
arrive - a search is started.

Cecil E. Chapman wrote:
??? So, the process is 'automated' in some way? What ATC and/or pilot
action toggles the action to closure?


None. No action necessary.

Dave Butler wrote:
Jay Somerset wrote:

Taking a different track, so i changed the thread/subject line...

If you are on a composite flight plan (VFR, then IFR) who is
responsible for
closing the VFR portion of the plan? If the VFR plan is not closed (with
FSS if a true VFR plan) then SAR will be initiated if they cannot get
hold
of you within an hour or two.

How does this work with a composite flight plan?


The pilot is responsible for contacting FSS and closing the VFR portion
of the flight plan.

And along the same vein, I was reading the AIM the other night and it
said that an FSS should also be contacted to get the IFR clearance at
the appropriate point. I believe the OP said he requested his IFR
clearance from approach control, which is contrary to the procedure
documented in the AIM. It doesn't say that another facility CAN'T give
you the IFR clearance for the IFR part of the composite flight plan, but
it specifically says to contact FSS for this. I assume that is written
there for a reason. Maybe if the OP has followed the recommended
procedure he would have had better luck.


Matt

Cecil E. Chapman wrote:
The answer to your question as well as to the general question of who is
responsible for closing any flight plan is: The pilot-in-command

Though generally speaking when you land at a towered airport they usually
close your IFR flight plan for you,,, but it is more a courtesy rather than
something they are 'responsible' for,,, so-to-speak. In the end it is the
responsibility of the PIC


I don't believe the statement above relative to an IFR flight plan to a
towered airport is correct. In that case the procedure is that ATC
closes the flight plan for the pilot. This is the standard procedure,
not a "courtesy" to the pilot.


Matt