A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old August 6th 15, 07:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Carlyle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 324
Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 2:04:00 PM UTC-4, John Carlyle wrote:
Could someone please clarify - if a PowerFlarm is in Stealth mode, does that affect in any way the display of PCAS and ADS-B information? If it does, then to my mind there's no sense in using Stealth mode at all, ever.

Assuming Stealth only affects Flarm signal display, I think we need to consider why people would want Stealth used in contests. I think there are three basic types of pilots at contests - those that are hyper competitive, those that are trying to learn competition flying, and those that are just out for fun. It's clear that hyper competitive pilots will probably always want Stealth, so they don't give up any advantage. Those that are trying to learn competition flying will most likely not want Stealth used, so they get a better idea of what's going on around them in real time so as to learn/improve faster. Those out for fun would probably also not want Stealth, but most likely only for situational awareness.

It's the learning pilots that I think are causing the angst in this thread. Perhaps a good compromise would be to allow Stealth only in Regional contests, or perhaps only in Sports class?

-John, Q3


Arrgh - non-Stealth mode only in Regional contests, or perhaps only in Sports class, not Stealth...
  #52  
Old August 6th 15, 07:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 608
Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 11:04:00 AM UTC-7, John Carlyle wrote:
Could someone please clarify - if a PowerFlarm is in Stealth mode, does that affect in any way the display of PCAS and ADS-B information? If it does, then to my mind there's no sense in using Stealth mode at all, ever.

Assuming Stealth only affects Flarm signal display, I think we need to consider why people would want Stealth used in contests. I think there are three basic types of pilots at contests - those that are hyper competitive, those that are trying to learn competition flying, and those that are just out for fun. It's clear that hyper competitive pilots will probably always want Stealth, so they don't give up any advantage. Those that are trying to learn competition flying will most likely not want Stealth used, so they get a better idea of what's going on around them in real time so as to learn/improve faster. Those out for fun would probably also not want Stealth, but most likely only for situational awareness.

It's the learning pilots that I think are causing the angst in this thread. Perhaps a good compromise would be to allow Stealth only in Regional contests, or perhaps only in Sports class?

-John, Q3


Stealth doesn't affect ADS-B or PCAS, but it does raise an interesting question.

As cheaper non-TSO'd GPS sources become available it is likely that some gliders will start equipping with ADS-B 1090ES Out (think Trig TT-series plus a Garmin GPS 20A, or equivalent). The future FAA position on ADS-B for gliders is TBD but there is an NPRM on transponders already on the table.

Ultimately, FAA action notwithstanding, you will see gliders equipped with ADS-B Out. These will offer ranges of many tens of miles, not the 3-5 miles offered by Flarm. All of that traffic information will be picked up by your PowerFLARM and go straight to your flight display and will include gliders as well as any power traffic equipped with ADS-B 1090ES. There's no stealth mode for ADS-B and ADS-B doesn't discriminate aircraft type. It does, I believe, transmit an ICAO code.

I'm guessing we don't want to be in the position of requiring pilots to turn off their ADS-B gear or banning its installation. You might be able to filter out glider ICAO codes using some sort of registration database like FlarmNet (not a current Flarm capability), but that starts to get pretty complicated and I'd bet the FAA would have something to say about it.

Not an immediate issue, but 5 years from now it could be very real.

John's points about preferences by pilot experience level are broadly consistent with my impressions talking with people - though there is a fair amount of variance. A poll question would put some real numbers against it.

9B
  #53  
Old August 6th 15, 07:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 608
Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

One other thing for people to chew on. I believe it was the paraglider folks who solved for this leeching thing in a very different way. They instituted 15-minute start time windows. Your start time is rounded back to the nearest quarter-hour. This leads to pilots starting in packs every 15 minutes. If you start 5 minutes late to try to catch the pack you get no credit for the later start time, so there's no benefit. If you can make up 15 minutes on the pack in front of you, well good for you. I don't know if everyone tends to leave at once or if it splits the field up nicely.

Worth pondering. It doesn't just solve for electronic leeching, it solves for the eyeball type too.

9B
  #54  
Old August 6th 15, 08:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jim White[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 286
Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

At 18:03 06 August 2015, John Carlyle wrote:
Could someone please clarify - if a PowerFlarm is in Stealth mode, does
tha=
t affect the display of PCAS and ADS-B information? If it does=
, then to my mind there's no sense in using Stealth mode at all, ever.=20

Assuming Stealth affects Flarm signal display, I think we need to co=
nsider why people would want Stealth used in contests. I think there are
t=
hree basic types of pilots at contests - those that are hyper

competitive,
=
those that are trying to learn competition flying, and those that are

just
=
out for fun. It's clear that hyper competitive pilots will probably

always
=
want Stealth, so they don't give up any advantage. Those that are trying
to=
learn competition flying will most likely want Stealth used, so they=
get a better idea of what's going on around them in real time so as to
lea=
rn/improve faster. Those out for fun would probably also want Stealth=
, but most likely only for situational awareness.=20

It's the learning pilots that I think are causing the angst in this
thread.=
Perhaps a good compromise would be to allow Stealth only in Regional
conte=
sts, or perhaps only in Sports class? =20

-John, Q3

In my experience competition pilots are optimists. They tend to think that
they will gain more competitive advantage from situational awareness than
they give away. In competition when stealth is optional most comp pilots go
'open'

Jim

  #55  
Old August 6th 15, 08:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ND
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 314
Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 10:10:20 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Respectfully Andy, I truly believe a contest is more interesting if it compares one pilot's soaring ability against another's.

A contest with unlimited use of FLARM and/or outside-the-cockpit sources compares pilots' capability to gather, synthesize, and analyze the abilities of multiple people (other pilots through FLARM, weatherman, call DJ on the iPhone, etc) This is decidedly un-birdlike and not as fun.

XC


I have to agree with XC, P3, and UH here, and disagree with you Andy (the 9B kind). Having a little computer screen that can tell you where the other competitors are and what they are doing/experiencing beyond what you can gather with your senses traditionally seems impure to me. I don't have a flarm, so I have to get my information the old fashioned way, by looking out the window. I don't say this as a crotchety old guy resisting change--(think turn point cameras and GPS)--i'm in my 20's. we all stare at screens all day and I think what's beautiful about soaring still is that we get in a glider to have real non "through-a-screen" experiences. but we've found a way to keep staring at screens, even up there.

I think too much of the analysis is done by a computer when using flarm to it's full tactical extent, and not enough is being done with the brain. I don't say that as a bitter non-flarm user, but as someone who is just collecting his in-flight information about the competition the old fashioned way. assessment, decision making, and judgement all go hand in hand, and I think that is a job that the pilot should be doing on his own. that's what sets us apart in the cockpit, our minds. what reallly makes the best truly the best? that they have the most money to spend on fancy instruments? no. it's their ability to assess the overall situation and make the best choices.

Lastly, I will completely contradict myself and acknowledge that at the international/hardcore team flying level, using that kind of information to it's fullest extent is what is necessary to get on the podium these days.
  #56  
Old August 6th 15, 08:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ND
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 314
Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 10:31:51 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 6:49:23 PM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
Wow - I would have thought it completely self-evident that having this information via a screen was/is "bad" relative to what we (I) traditionally think of as "the sport of soaring".


The "sport" often involves highly tactical decisions of followng other gliders. Is it necessarily better that this is limited by the mark IV eybeball, so gliders have to follow very closely to stay with gaggles? Is it not possibly better to have a wider view, a chance to go off on your own and still keep track of others?

Yes, people do use flarm for tactical advantage. Right now, really, the display of where other glders are within 4 miles is the main use. The climb rates, as others have pointed out, are next to useless.

Cost is a non-issue. Advantage is a non-issue. We have the flarms anyway. We either artificially disable their capabilities or we use them at no extra cost for their full ability, and everyone has them. If you're worried about cost, $160,000 new gliders are orders of magniutde more than any electronics we are contemplating.

Let's worry about hypothetical new 100k instruments if and when they arrive. For now the issue is, do we use the full capabilities of an instrument everyone has anyway or not?

So just how terrible is it to have a slightly better situalational awareness of where the gliders are within 4 miles -- and especially behind where you can't see?

One thing I like about full flarm is it actually breaks up gaggles. people can go off on their own for a bit and not worry about being alone all day..

Yes it's different. Yes it's new. But our job is not historic preservation. Our job is to have fun and enjoy soaring and advance the sport.

What I have not seen in the case for stealth mode is a clear statement of just what is the awful problem that we're trying to fix. Not hypotheticals, what have you actually observed in flarm contests that is a terrible problem requiring banning this interesting new technology?

Yes, you can see start gaggles that you otherwise might have missed unless you sat off the back of KS tail all day. Yes, you can see some other gaggles forming that you might have missed if you weren't looking very hard. So can everyone else. Just how terrible is this?

Personally I find the greater situational awareness of what others are doing makes the contest more enjoyable. The big complaint, especially when we moved from AST to time limited tasks is that nobody knew what anyone else was doing, you went and flew and waited for an 8 pm scoresheet. Well, now you know a lot more about what others are doing.

But that's my view. All I've heard is grumbling about how terrible it is that the sport is changing. That's not a problem. I've heard hypotheticals about new instruments someone might make someday. That's not a problem today. Just what is the real problem we're trying to fix here?

John Cochrane BB


Not EVERYONE has flarm bruh.
  #57  
Old August 6th 15, 08:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
XC
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 91
Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

....
But that's my view. All I've heard is grumbling about how terrible it is that the sport is changing. That's not a problem. I've heard hypotheticals about new instruments someone might make someday. That's not a problem today. Just what is the real problem we're trying to fix here?

John Cochrane BB


Let me make my case another way, using an example from this past week at the 15m/Std. Nat's. On day three the sky looked great. I started alone with high hopes of blasting down the course line to catch others.

It turned out the day was much trickier than that. I failed to recognize this early, failed to properly evaluate the risk/reward, kept my water too late and landed out on the first leg. My performance was not good enough that day and I paid the price receiving 136 out of a possible 1000 points.

I would have loved to have had full FLARM capabilities as I got lower that day. I might have headed directly for someone's thermal and climbed out of a bad position. This would have effectively spackled over a major divot in my soaring performance.

Instead others who truly performed better were rewarded with a better score.. My hat is off to the pilots who figured it out consistently at Harris Hill, you can be proud of your performance. I'll learn from mine.

Again, I feel that using the full capabilities for FLARM smoothes out these lows and highs, making for a duller contest with less valid results. Plus, I may never have visited Almond, NY.

XC

  #58  
Old August 6th 15, 08:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ND
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 314
Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 11:06:24 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 7:50:45 PM UTC-7, XC wrote:
I've seen a pilot in a Regional who didn't practice all year and never was very good locate a top competitor pre-start using FLARM, follow him around the course and win the day in a FAI handicapped class because he was flying a 15m glider and the top competitor was flying an 18m glider. I started with the two of them split off and did my own thing.

XC


I have to agree with JC. In fact I would prefer that the range be greatly increased. If I get a Flarm warning that I was not expecting, I consider that a failure of situational awareness.

The story about a mediocre pilot in a 15m following a top pilot in an 18 meter is quite far fetched - at least where I fly pretty much impossible as described. If performance in this sport comes down to simply aping another's actions, then it isn't quite the skill sport that we thought.


False. I've seen it too. i've seen mediocre pilots post excellent speeds because they mimed an excellent pilot's decision making. does that mean he had the right stuff? no. it means he copied someone's homework. it IS the skill sport we think it is. it's why Jerzy can go faster than everyone else by 5-10 MPH more often than seems possible. because to win over and over, tremendous skill is required.
  #59  
Old August 6th 15, 08:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 351
Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

One thing to keep in mind: Pilots can always use stealth mode on their own. If it bugs you that someone may follow you, then turn on stealth. The issue is mandating it for all.

John Cochrane BB
  #60  
Old August 6th 15, 08:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ND
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 314
Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 3:31:54 PM UTC-4, XC wrote:
...
But that's my view. All I've heard is grumbling about how terrible it is that the sport is changing. That's not a problem. I've heard hypotheticals about new instruments someone might make someday. That's not a problem today. Just what is the real problem we're trying to fix here?

John Cochrane BB


Let me make my case another way, using an example from this past week at the 15m/Std. Nat's. On day three the sky looked great. I started alone with high hopes of blasting down the course line to catch others.

It turned out the day was much trickier than that. I failed to recognize this early, failed to properly evaluate the risk/reward, kept my water too late and landed out on the first leg. My performance was not good enough that day and I paid the price receiving 136 out of a possible 1000 points.

I would have loved to have had full FLARM capabilities as I got lower that day. I might have headed directly for someone's thermal and climbed out of a bad position. This would have effectively spackled over a major divot in my soaring performance.

Instead others who truly performed better were rewarded with a better score. My hat is off to the pilots who figured it out consistently at Harris Hill, you can be proud of your performance. I'll learn from mine.

Again, I feel that using the full capabilities for FLARM smoothes out these lows and highs, making for a duller contest with less valid results. Plus, I may never have visited Almond, NY.

XC


really well said sean!
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
AOPA Convention - B29 FIFI ------ Stealth Mode Noted!!! Stetson J.B. Mentzer Aviation Photos 0 December 27th 10 01:07 AM
Flarm and stealth John Cochrane[_2_] Soaring 47 November 3rd 10 07:19 AM
Standard Nationals-Hobbs BGMIFF Soaring 3 July 21st 04 06:16 PM
Standard Nationals Need Towplanes C AnthMin Soaring 5 July 14th 04 12:46 AM
Standard Class Nationals Sam Giltner Soaring 1 August 21st 03 01:42 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.