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Class B bust my fault or the controllers ?



 
 
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  #22  
Old May 28th 05, 08:42 PM
Gary Drescher
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"Jose" wrote in message
...
You say "By turning early, I created an inconvenience for you, and I was
on your frequency. By not turning early, I'd create an inconvenience for
an unknown entity with whom I was not in communication."


Avoiding the incursion is apparently what the FAA expects you to do (despite
the ambiguity in the FARs), so you shouldn't have to make any argument at
all about who's more inconvenienced. In particular, there's no need to
invent an "emergency" where none exists.

--Gary


  #23  
Old May 29th 05, 12:37 PM
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Gary Drescher wrote:

wrote in message ...
An emergency is not limited to the
aircraft having a mechanical or similar such problem. Violating Class B
airspace has unknown ramifactions, such as perhaps approach control seeing
the
intrustion and declaring an emergency on your flight because of loss of
separation, etc., etc.


It's true that a controller *might*, for additional reasons, deem a Class B
incursion to be an emergency. But I doubt that a slight breach of Class B,
with good visibility and no conflicting traffic, would *by itself*
constitute an emergency. So I don't think 91.3b would necessarily come into
play.

Again, I don't dispute that you should avoid the incursion, even if you have
to violate 91.123b. I just wish the FARs weren't contradictory on that
point.

--Gary


I cited both 91 (a) and (b). If just (a) fits in your judgment, then that's
your judgment. You will have a far greater chance of avoiding the enforcement
hearing if you remain clear of the Class B.

  #25  
Old May 29th 05, 12:51 PM
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Bob Gardner wrote:

According to my SEA Class B chart, if you are at 800 feet and turn before
you get to I-405, you will not enter Class B. Something to check before
takeoff. The Boeing controller has no authority in the SEA Class B. You
should have spoken up before reaching 405.


The airspace there is so complex with not only the Class B but the Renton
Class D. If I were going to land at BFI as an out-of-towner, it would be IFR
or I wouldn't get near any of it. I don't think I would even accept a visual
approach to BFI.

  #26  
Old May 29th 05, 12:58 PM
Gary Drescher
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wrote in message ...

I cited both 91 (a) and (b). If just (a) fits in your judgment, then
that's
your judgment.


But 91.3a merely says that the PIC has final responsibility and authority.
That *doesn't* mean that the PIC is at liberty (except in emergencies) to
violate the FARs, though! And what's under discussion here is whether
rejecting an ATC instruction (except in an emergency) violates the FARs
(specifically, 91.123b, which requires compliance with ATC instructions,
except in emergencies). There's nothing in 91.3a that addresses that
question.

You will have a far greater chance of avoiding the enforcement
hearing if you remain clear of the Class B.


Sure, I've never disputed that. I'm just disputing that the FARs make that
clear.

--Gary


  #27  
Old May 29th 05, 01:46 PM
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Gary Drescher wrote:

wrote in message ...

I cited both 91 (a) and (b). If just (a) fits in your judgment, then
that's
your judgment.


But 91.3a merely says that the PIC has final responsibility and authority.
That *doesn't* mean that the PIC is at liberty (except in emergencies) to
violate the FARs, though! And what's under discussion here is whether
rejecting an ATC instruction (except in an emergency) violates the FARs
(specifically, 91.123b, which requires compliance with ATC instructions,
except in emergencies). There's nothing in 91.3a that addresses that
question.

You will have a far greater chance of avoiding the enforcement
hearing if you remain clear of the Class B.


Sure, I've never disputed that. I'm just disputing that the FARs make that
clear.


Well, this isn't the only case where FARs are not clear. In some cases, they
are downright misleading; in some cases they are quite clear, and then there
is the great middle: basic regulatory guidance that is suspended on a vast web
of "advisory" guidance and policy statements from the FAA over the years.

This one is fairly simple in that context: no Class B clearance, no enter the
Class B.


  #28  
Old May 29th 05, 03:06 PM
Brad Zeigler
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"Antoņio" wrote in message
oups.com...
Today I flew into KBFI (Boeing field) which is class D and has
extentions that underlie the Class B that require close attention to
altitudes and headings so as to stay clear. Today the winds were
favoring 31L (and 31R) and I came in from the west on the Vashon
approach--the most common approach from the west.

I was on a left downwind for 31L and the tower told me I was number
three following an Arrow on about a 2 mile straight in final (Valley
approach?). I acknowledged the traffic, and was waiting for it to come
up on my 9 o'clock before turning base so as to allow enough spacing.

The controller suddenly told me that I was too far south and said
either that I had busted into surface B or was about to. (I never did
clearly hear which).
Unless one turns a fairly close in base here--within about a half mile
or less--you end up in class B surface.

My questions:

1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to
follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can
reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the
aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right?

2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn
base and not be in conflict with other aircraft?

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ?

Any thoughts would be appreciated...

Antonio


If you're VFR, as we are assuming you were, you are responsible for
following the tower controllers instructions up to the point that they cause
a potential for collision. ATC in class D is responsible for separating IFR
from IFR traffic only. If an instruction sends you towards another
aircraft, you'd deviate as necessary. That wasn't an emergency, it was
see-and-avoid. You'd notify ATC that you'd deviated, and why, and because
no metal hit and no loss of separation occurred, no harm, no foul. The
controller may be ****ed that the traffic flow is now messed up...oh well.

Now if you proceed into class B airspace, you're entering an area of
positive separation of everyone from everyone...that's why you need a
clearance. Bust class B without a clearance and you could very well cause a
loss of separation...bet your butt you'll get a call about that.

Here's the thing: the tower controller knows you're not cleared into class B
and is expecting you'll avoid it on your own. If the aircraft you're
following does something unexpectly (i.e. extending downwind too long) than
the controller expects you'll do whatever's necessary to 1) avoid hitting
other airplanes, 2) avoid busting class B. His instruction was provided to
sequence aircraft, not to keep from hitting each other.

If this thread was on rec.aviation.piloting, Jay Honeck would probably chime
in at this point mentioning how much class D airspace sucks. It's fine as
long as all pilots in the airspace understand the roles and responsibilities
of ATC and themselves. Then again, maybe Jay has a point.


  #29  
Old May 29th 05, 03:23 PM
Gary Drescher
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wrote in message ...
This one is fairly simple in that context: no Class B clearance, no enter
the
Class B.


Yes, that's simple and unambiguous. There's no doubt that it violates the
FARs to enter Class B without a clearance, even if so instructed by ATC.
That was never the issue.

Rather, the issue is that as the FARs are written, it violates 91.123b to
disobey an ATC instruction, except in an emergency. So if you're instructed
to enter Class B without a clearance, you violate one FAR or another
*whether you comply or not*.

You and I agree about how the FAA wants us to resolve that conflict in the
FARs. My point is just that the conflict there does exist.

--Gary


  #30  
Old May 29th 05, 03:36 PM
Jose
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Rather, the issue is that as the FARs are written, it violates 91.123b to
disobey an ATC instruction, except in an emergency. So if you're instructed
to enter Class B without a clearance, you violate one FAR or another
*whether you comply or not*.


How is this different from "refusing" to obey an ATC instruction that
would be impossible to follow? There is no stated exception for
impossible things either, but somehow nobody gets busted for that.

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
 




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