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#51
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ASH 26E VS DG 808C
Bumper wrote :
Simple, reliable, almost no maintenance required . . . even a cave man could do it. A DEI? Kind of like the automatic parking option on the new Lexus - - why bother? (g) I was going to put down a list of what the DEI manges but it is easier to post this link :-) http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/dei-nt-e.html Its not even worth comparing it to the Ilec. A one switch on and go. Its software can also be upgraded when updates are available. Paul P.S Just arrived back with a brand new DG 808 cc for a customer. Nice!!!!! |
#52
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Antares 20E vs. ASH 26E VS DG 808C
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#53
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Antares 20E vs. ASH 26E VS DG 808C
Hi Andy,
Information on the battery system can be found he http://lange-flugzeugbau.com/htm/eng...tares_20e/batt ery_system.html At 14:42 30 October 2006, Andy wrote: wrote: PS: It was pointed out that I forgot: NO GASOLINE AND NO GASOLINE FUMES ! See ya, Dave Can you comment on the expected battery life and the cost of replacement? Can the owner replace the batteries? thanks Andy |
#54
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Antares 20E vs. ASH 26E VS DG 808C
Andor Holtsmark wrote: Hi Andy, Information on the battery system can be found he http://lange-flugzeugbau.com/htm/eng...tares_20e/batt ery_system.html Thanks. That tells me I should expect to replace the batteries at least every 10 years but I found no informatoion on cost or whether it was approved owner maintenance. Andy |
#55
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Antares 20E vs. ASH 26E VS DG 808C
Andy schrieb:
Thanks. That tells me I should expect to replace the batteries at least every 10 years but I found no informatoion on cost or whether it was approved owner maintenance. No. It tells you that you should expect a lifetime of at least 10 years or 1500 cycles. Todays cost for a replacement is around 15k, nobody knows what it will be in 10 years. Stefan |
#56
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Antares 20E vs. ASH 26E VS DG 808C
Hi Andy,
User maintenance: No, Lange Flugzeugbau does not endorse users playing around with the battery pack. What kind of maintenance you would want to perform is also unclear to me. Howerver, removing a battery pack and exchanging single batttery modules is a simple task which takes little time when performed by a trained individual. Battery price: The price of a full battery pack is an academic issue. As pointed out; by the time you will need to replace the pack, the price of the pack will be a very different one. I am however, rather sure the price will not have climbed. Furthermore, by then you should have climbed 3.600.000 m (11.811.024 ft) under power, and flown some 228.000 km (123.110 n miles) in sawtooth flight, assuming no nasty thermals have decided to interfere. Andor |
#57
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ASH 26E VS DG 808C
One of my original questions was since both these designs are over 12 years old (normal life span for a design) what changes would you like to see in future designs? And when do you expect a new self launch motor glider design to come on the market? On Oct 28, 11:11 am, "bumper" wrote: "Gary Evans" wrote in ... A couple of DG800 advantages that bumper overlooked. 1) An engine that doesn't cost $17000 to replace. 2) An engine that can be worked on with out having to remove it from the fuselage. While this may not seem like something you will ever have to do you'll want to keep a couple of big friends around for spark plugs changes. I believe there were at least three engines pulled for one problem or another at this years ASA Parowan camp. They also had their own cart to haul the engines around for repairs but I'm not sure if thats a standard 26 option. 3) A superior engine management system (DEI) with manual back up. IMO the engine related issues sum up the big difference between these two ships as performance both in glide and under power are way similar. The 26 has a smoother engine and the 800 has one, which is easier and cheaper to maintain. They are both state of the art ships and you won't be sorry for buying either. DG has done a pretty fair comparison between the 26/800/Ventus 2cM that can be viewed here - http://tinyurl.com/yz4shsGary, I agree that performance wise they're essentially equal. On your other points: 1) The 17K figure may seem a lot, however, the need to completely replace one of these engines is quite rare. Replacing the Wankel's major engine parts costs around $8K Euro. Those few cases were this was necessary were most likely due to oil starvation and a Chernobyl type melt down. You do need to keep oil in the tank and pay attention to engine temperatures. Otherwise the Wankel, besides having small size which allows a narrow fuselage, has excellent power density and vibration free smoothness. The Wankel is also remarkably reliable and trouble free. The lack of vibration means that stuff doesn't crack, break or fall off the motor and things nearby - - a major positive attribute as compared to most 2-strokes. I heard that two of the 26E engines pulled at Parowan where to replace broken drive belts. This is an unusual occurrence, as the Wankel, with it's multiple smaller power pulses per revolution, is gentle to the drive train as compared to a 2-stroke. There was talk of a change in formulation used in manufacturing the Gates Poly-Chain drive belts. AFAIK, the reason for this breakage hasn't been 100% resolved/confirmed. I do know that some owners have 150 hours and more with no drive belt issues. For the whole 26E fleet, I'm aware of only the Parowan failures and one prior failure caused by a bearing failure in one of the guide pulleys. Belt failures have occurred on the 2-stroke powered ships as well, a backfire on start up will do the deed. 2) Yup, on my 26E the engine must be pulled to change plugs. There is a factory mod that provides an access hole to allow plug service without pulling the engine. It's retrofitable to my ship, but since I've never had to service the plugs, I don't plan on adding this mod. Besides, the engine package is easy enough to remove and can be done solo in about an hour (maybe half that with good help). Remove 3 bolts, 3 wiring cable plugs, a couple of Bowden cable connections (throttle and prop stop) and a fuel line. A "cherry picker" engine hoist is needed if removing the engine solo. I've only done this once in the 4 years and 23 engine hours I've had the ship, but plan on doing it for the next annual just to look at things. 3) When shopping, I considered DG's DEI engine control a plus, but after using the simple ILEC engine control, as used on the 26E and many other self-launch gliders, I'm not so sure. To put away the prop on the 26E: a- turn off ignition b- when prop stops, engage manual prop-stop lever (this swings a rubber stopper into the prop arc) and nose over slightly to windmill prop into stop as viewed in rear view mirror. c- push pylon switch down until prop just disappears from view in mirror (this is the cool down position), at thermalling speeds, the additional drag caused by the partially extended prop/radiator is minimal and still allows reasonable climb performance. d- In my ship, the cool down period takes 3 - 4 minutes. After observing a 2 C drop in engine coolant temp, push switch to retract prop fully. Simple, reliable, almost no maintenance required . . . even a cave man could do it. A DEI? Kind of like the automatic parking option on the new Lexus - - why bother? (g) I agree the most prominent mechanical difference between these two ships is the power train. I do not agree that the DG's 2-stroke engine is easier and cheaper to maintain. Given, replacing a 2-stroke engine is much less expensive than replacing the Wankel. However, this needs to be tempered by the fact that the Wankel will hardly need replacement if operated with reasonable care and its on-going maintenance is usually less expensive. After talking to Tom and Billy Stowers (High Country Soaring, and who have worked on all manner of these ships), my impression is that the 2-stroke maintenance issues they experience is an order of magnitude greater with 2-strokes than on the Wankel powered ships. This is also borne out by a check of the relevant AD's. The ASH26E has but two airworthiness directives (rotor cooling fan and muffler), both early-on teething problems that were resolved years ago. The many more subtle differences between the two ships are perhaps more subjective. I talked with Larry Mansberger about the "beneath the skin" differences between DG and Schleicher as I was not in a position to take a chain saw and see for myself. Keeping in mind that this was several years ago and the wing sections I saw were made prior to current DG factory ownership, the innards of the Schleicher wing looked to be assembled with the same care and attention to detail as the outer parts the customer normally sees - - not so inside the DG wing. Many of the DG's at Minden have gel-coat surface cracks on the wings, commonly around the spoiler boxes. I haven't seen this on Schleichers, though some earlier 26E's did show the wing spar profile after several years - - later versions, my 2002 model included, have not done this - so far. Subjectively, the 26E cockpit finish is nicer and ergonomics, even for taller pilots, is excellent. The DG's pigeon-toed rudder pedals, when I was trying it on, gave me foot cramps. I've asked several DG800 series owners, on the Minden ramp, why they chose the DG-800 series over the ASH26E. At the time, purchase cost was essentially the same for either ship and probably is still close. By a large margin the answer was availability, the delivery wait for the 26E then being two years, more than double that for the DG at the time. For one DG owner, the 800's two piece wing was a deciding factor (the 26E's one piece wing means the trailer must be longer, at about 35"). All that said, owners of both these ships seem happy with their decisions, and that's what really counts. My strong bias in favor of the ASH26E may well be indicative of a underlying personality flaw (g), I have little tolerance for things mechanical that could have, or should have, been done better. bumper |
#58
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Antares 20E vs. ASH 26E VS DG 808C
Andor Holtsmark wrote: Hi Andy, User maintenance: No, Lange Flugzeugbau does not endorse users playing around with the battery pack. What kind of maintenance you would want to perform is also unclear to me. Howerver, removing a battery pack and exchanging single batttery modules is a simple task which takes little time when performed by a trained individual. Battery price: The price of a full battery pack is an academic issue. As pointed out; by the time you will need to replace the pack, the price of the pack will be a very different one. I am however, rather sure the price will not have climbed. Furthermore, by then you should have climbed 3.600.000 m (11.811.024 ft) under power, and flown some 228.000 km (123.110 n miles) in sawtooth flight, assuming no nasty thermals have decided to interfere. Andor Hi, Price of $15 000 for the batterie is not so expansive. 1500 tows @ $30 is $ 45 000. Good deal I think! S6 |
#60
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ASH 26E VS DG 808C
Ok, I'll bite. This is what I want:
- 15 meter, 45:1, 300 pound empty weight, 200 knot redline - Turboprop self launch using something like this: http://www.jetcatusa.com/spt5.html This little thing could put out 55 lb of thrust and weigh (without prop, frame, gearing etc.) 2.5 kg - 6-8 gallon fuel capacity, good for 90 minutes - Total delivered cost: US$70-80,000 This can be done today, and in fact, when the Sparrowhawk's racing model comes out (no dates yet), it will fulfill the glider requirements above. Of course I'm optimistic, but all the technology exists today for all these requirements. I expect to buy this in the next 2-3 years. Kemp If you want to extend your range of choices in IC powered gliders, call up Windward Performance and ask them when their self-launching SparrowHawk will be available. They delivered one to Mississippi University for the UAV program, and now plan to build another, with a purpose unknown to me. |
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