Making the OSH Arrival Safer

("Steven P. McNicoll" wrote)
If you can't stay in step you can't be in the parade. You're not up to
flying to OSH. If you go, drive.


If you drive, and are approaching OSH from the west, say ...from Tomah on
(Wis) Hwy 21 - please keep your speed up.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?C23616F7D
Tomah is where i-90 and i-94 meet.
They meet up again out in Billings, Montana.


Montblack

"Montblack" wrote in message
...

If you drive, and are approaching OSH from the west, say ...from Tomah on
(Wis) Hwy 21 - please keep your speed up.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?C23616F7D
Tomah is where i-90 and i-94 meet.
They meet up again out in Billings, Montana.


And in Madison, Wisconsin.
And in Chicago, Illinois. Twice.

"Emily" wrote in message
. ..
Dave Stadt wrote:
"Emily" wrote in message
. ..
Dave Stadt wrote:
"almostthere" wrote in message
...
I've never been to OSH and am intending to go there next year. OSH
controllers, be advised that if I feel that the approach is unsafe and
you
don't honor my "unable" then its 7700 on the com and xponder and to
hell
with your convenience. I'll let my AOPA legal plan take care of the
details.
You really need to consider not attending OSH.
so just because it's OSH, people should throw away all normal rules?

Normal rules are not the norm at OSH but that doesn't mean the modified
rules are dangerous IF you know how to fly your airplane and can follow
simple instructions.

OSH shouldn't be any different than flying into anywhere else.

As the busiest airport in the world it is very different. If you can't
handle having traffic within several hundred yards you should not fly in.

Most busy airports don't have low time pilots in all sorts of aircraft
flying into them.

I'll repeat for you.....If you can't handle having traffic within several
hundred yards you should not fly in.

Any chance that someone downloaded and saved the audio of this time period
from liveatc.net ?

I would be interested in listening to it.



I have been to SNF for 4 years but have always flown into winter haven
airport and bypassed the stress of going to the show airport. Next year I
was thinking of going to Airventure and thought about flying into OSH but
might be having second thoughts and would fly in to a close airport
instead..



Thanks in advance



Jon



"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
As many of you know, this was our 24th consecutive Airventure -- and
our 8th flying in. I've seen the RIPON/FISK arrival from all angles,
both from the ground and in the air, and have seen pretty much
everything that could be thrown at us. Although it's always tense,
due to the proximity of aircraft and the unusual arrival procedures,
the OSH arrival is usually a piece of cake.

This year, however, was different. Due to a fatal accident on Rwy 27,
the normally orderly stream of aircraft up the railroad tracks was
turned into a multi-hour hold around Rush and Green lakes. With
temperatures and tempers flaring, I witnessed radio discipline
completely break down at Oshkosh, for the first time. Worse, as the
lakes melee deteriorated, frustrated pilots were cheating the hold and
flying up the tracks DESPITE specific instructions from controllers to
remain in the hold.

Worse yet, IMHO, the controllers were doing nothing about it. They
were simply clearing these bold scoff-laws right into OSH, leaving the
rule-abiding pilots to circle endlessly. This really ground salt into
the wounds of the many who were circling the lakes for nearly two
hours, and made a tough situation downright ugly. I've never heard such
language on an aircraft radio -- and I hope to never hear it again.

Speed, as always, became a critical issue. With literally dozens of
aircraft circling nose-to-tail, the cha-cha line began to break down.
Dissimilar aircraft, varying from Champs to RVs, were all trying to
stay in line, but -- over time -- the line simply broke down. A Cub,
going full bore, can barely do the required 90 knots in a dive, let
alone in cruise, and with so many airplanes in the same line, the
speeds gradually deteriorated into a dangerous situation.

At one point I was forced to drop 2 notches of flaps, and was hanging
on the prop, trying not to over-run a gaggle of Kitfoxes, with other
planes on both sides AND above me. The single line around the lake at
one point was actually THREE lines abreast, and it was an absolutely
mess.

I don't ever want to see anything like that again, so, here are my
suggestions to make the EAA Arrival Procedures safer and easier next
year:

1. Add an LSA Arrival Procedure.
Currently, there are just two procedures for "non-ultra-light"
aircraft: 1800 MSL and 90 knots, or 2300 MSL, and 130 knots. Trouble
is, a Cub or a Kitfox (or many of the new LSAs) are not capable of
maintaining 90 knots in cruise. This results in an ever-slowing
approach, which ALWAYS results in trouble. (Was that poor Europa
pilot who was killed impeded by someone going 60 knots? Will we ever
know?)

We need a third speed/altitude, just for slower planes. For 2007 I
suggest adding an "LSA Arrival" at 70 knots, and 1800 MSL, to keep
these slow-pokes out of the bunch. This will make things MUCH safer
for the majority of pilots. Keep "GA Arrivals" at 90 knots, but move
'em up to 2100 feet, and bump the 130 knot "Fast Mover" arrivals up to
2400 MSL.

2. Stop the "Keep in Tight" Commands.
Every year I've landed on Rwy 27, the controller spends most of his
time admonishing arrivals to "keep it inside the blue water tower" on
downwind. This always results in a "Corsair approach" to land, meaning
that you're banked steeply in a constantly descending right turn all
the way to touchdown.

Face it, everyone is loaded at (or beyond) gross, it's hot, nerves are
frazzled, and then you're forced to perform an abnormally tight pattern
to land -- all (apparently) for the convenience of the controllers. I
didn't see it, but the guy who stalled and spun in was performing this
arrival, and it's tough. (We landed on Rwy 36 later, which is a much
simpler -- and safer -- approach.)

IMHO, there is no reason for this to happen. If the pattern gets a bit
wider, who cares? Pilot safety should be paramount, not controller
convenience. If they're worried about the pattern expanding beyond
their ability to see from the tower, they're just gonna have to move
their butts out onto a flat-bed, just like FISK.

3. COMMUNICATE Problems.
The multi-hour mess that followed the accident was exacerbated by the
fact that the controllers NEVER (while I was in it, anyway) explained
what was going on. If they had simply said "Guys, there's been an
accident, we're down to half the runways, it's gonna be a while till
they clean it up." -- a whole bunch of pilots would have diverted to
other airports to wait it out.

Instead, all they said was "Guys, we're doing the best we can, but if
you don't give us the proper 1/2 mile spacing, we're gonna send you
back to the lake to do it again." This gave pilots no useful
information, and essentially made the problem worse by making pilots
think that the hold might end at any minute.

That's it. Nothing earth-shaking, but I feel these three changes would
be easy to implement, and would help make the Oshkosh approach safer
and more enjoyable for everyone.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Despite all the discussion, flying in is an experience that is well
worth it, and I truly believe that.

Good point, Ryan -- this cannot be be stressed too much.

Flying into OSH should be every pilot's goal. In my opinion, until
you've been to Oshkosh, as a pilot, in your own plane, you have missed
one of the truly great experiences in life.

All this talk about making the OSH arrival safer is healthy, and needs
to be quietly discussed amongst thoughtful pilots -- but this should
not in any way dissuade one from flying in. It's the trip of a
lifetime, and I've been blessed to be able to do it multiple times.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On 2006-07-31, Jay Honeck wrote:
We need a third speed/altitude, just for slower planes. For 2007 I
suggest adding an "LSA Arrival" at 70 knots, and 1800 MSL, to keep
these slow-pokes out of the bunch. This will make things MUCH safer
for the majority of pilots. Keep "GA Arrivals" at 90 knots, but move
'em up to 2100 feet, and bump the 130 knot "Fast Mover" arrivals up to
2400 MSL.

I was thinking this in 2000, when I did OSH. Reading the procedure, "if
unable to maintain 90 knots", I thought "What about planes that can't
even go that fast?" Fortunately, the C140 can fast cruise at 90 knots,
but sure enough, I came up behind a Pietenpol doing about 65 knots as
well as a Cub. Then there are conflicting procedures: one says 'no
overtaking' and the other says 'maintain 90 knots'. With the Cub and
Pietenpol that I was catching, I could do either one or the other, not
both (as the procedure called for). I elected to follow the Cub and
Pietenpol rather than overtake them on the grounds that three of us
would be easier to see. I wasn't surprised when a Bonanza overtook us.

Personally, when I did OSH, I had already decided that if the hold
lasted more than 15 minutes, I'd go to another airport and wait a bit.
I've done plenty of formation flying, but I don't like to do formation
flying with a large gaggle of strangers for hours at a time.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

"me" wrote

I have been to SNF for 4 years but have always flown into winter haven
airport and bypassed the stress of going to the show airport. Next year I
was thinking of going to Airventure and thought about flying into OSH but
might be having second thoughts and would fly in to a close airport
instead..

Don't let all of this freak you out. Practices all of the maneuvers you
might be called on to do, like slow flight, precision touchdowns, flying
down the runway, tight one-turn to- final patterns, slowing down and
speeding up your approach, ect.

After that, plan on not arriving at a peak time. Stage at a nearby airport,
and leave at such a time as to be one of the first arrivals when the airport
opens.

You can do it.
--
Jim in NC

If you are UNABLE.. then the safest course of action is to depart the
area on a non-conflicting heading and altitude. Don't rely on AOPA legal
to prevent the accident.

almostthere wrote:
I've never been to OSH and am intending to go there next year. OSH
controllers, be advised that if I feel that the approach is unsafe and you
don't honor my "unable" then its 7700 on the com and xponder and to hell
with your convenience. I'll let my AOPA legal plan take care of the
details.


"Skywise" wrote in message
...

Being a non pilot I may just be blowing smoke, but after reading
about this tragedy and the ensuing madness, I have an idea....

Do you think there'd be enough people that would stand up and say
that "I'm boycotting OSH until new, safer approach procedures are
implimented" and voice this statement publicly to AOPA, FAA, EAA,
OSH, and whoever else should see it?

The point being, if a lot of pilots come out and say they are not
going next year because, as pilots in command, they feel the
approach procedures are unsafe, perhaps the problem will get
looked at much quicker?

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

You have some good ideas Jim.. Thanks..

I have flown the Tiger into some busy places including JFK, LGA and lot of
airshows. The thing that I am using as a personal comparison is the aopa
fly-in at their headquarters. It was so crazy that I have put that event on
the never again list..

Take care,

Jon

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"me" wrote

I have been to SNF for 4 years but have always flown into winter haven
airport and bypassed the stress of going to the show airport. Next year I
was thinking of going to Airventure and thought about flying into OSH but
might be having second thoughts and would fly in to a close airport
instead..

Don't let all of this freak you out. Practices all of the maneuvers you
might be called on to do, like slow flight, precision touchdowns, flying
down the runway, tight one-turn to- final patterns, slowing down and
speeding up your approach, ect.

After that, plan on not arriving at a peak time. Stage at a nearby
airport,
and leave at such a time as to be one of the first arrivals when the
airport
opens.

You can do it.
--
Jim in NC