US resident , no greencard, buying a glider in the US

On Oct 25, 12:18*am, Peter wrote:
On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 23:07:26 -0700, Mike wrote:
On Oct 25, 12:01*am, Peter wrote:
I'm hoping to tap the voice of experience...

I've been thinking about buying a glider ever since I moved to the US,
its been 10 years now and I'm still waiting to get my Green card... yay
go USA... anyway... bitterness aside...

I know that I can't register an Aircraft on the US register unless its
owned by a US entity (person or corporation, majority),... or a
Greencard holder... bitter a little.

BUT...

Is there anything to stop me buying one and transferring it the the UK
register, but keeping it here and having my father (a UK based aircraft
inspector) come over and give it its annual airworthiness on the UK
register and fly it that way ?

What would be the process, would I have to get an export CofA and go
through all that rigmarole and then do the Uk equivalent to transfer
the registration, even thought he aircraft is not actually being
exported ?

And I would eventually (hopefully some decade soon) be reversing the
process once I get my Greencard.

Any other common means for a non-US citizen to own an aircraft legally
in the US. I don;t want to bend any rules and I'd rather not put a
$50-80K glider on teh register under someone elses name (and
effectively make them liable for any legal/tax issues), as well as have
to trust someone with that much of an asset that I'd have to basically
lose legal rights to to transfer to them legally.

Or should I pack up my stuff and head back to blighty... :-)

Peter

Is it legal for you to lease a sailplane?

I'd actually not thought of that, but since I'm looking at second hand
gliders, I don't think its an option ... is it ?, can I get a lease on a
used aircraft... ?

Peter

Yes sometimes people will lease used sailplanes. I would check with
some of the commercial glider operations in the country, to see if
they know anyone willing to lease a sailplane.

You just have to get creative without making it complicated. Here are
some ideas:

These should occur concurrently:
1. Lend the purchase money to a US citizen for 1 dollar in interest a
year, who then buys the plane in his/her name
2. Lease it back from him or her for 1 dollar a year with an option to
buy it in exchange for canceling the loan. Yo also have a right or
first refusal in he/she tries to sell. The agreement will also
stipulate that if he/she sells before you exercise the option, that
you receive the sales proceeds.
3. In the lease agreement, you also agree to assume all liabilities,
taxes, insurance, maintenance etc...while you operate it
4. When you sell, you
a) buy it back by canceling the loan
b) sell it concurrently with the purchase without registering it in
your name

Corporation
I think a US corporation needs a social security number to be attached
to it to start it. But later, I think a foreigner can "buy" it out
100%. You can do it that way as well I think and run everything under
the corporation. You'd need to file yearly corporate returns. If it's
just for the glider, the extra work paperwork for taxes would be
minimal.

Register in UK and fly in USA

Good luck

Peter wrote:
On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 08:28:40 -0700, AK wrote:

On Oct 25, 2:01 am, Peter wrote:
....
I've been thinking about buying a glider ever since I moved to the US,
its been 10 years now and I'm still waiting to get my Green card... yay
go USA... anyway... bitterness aside...

I know that I can't register an Aircraft on the US register unless its
owned by a US entity (person or corporation, majority),... or a
Greencard holder... bitter a little.

BUT...

Is there anything to stop me buying one and transferring it the the UK
register, but keeping it here and having my father (a UK based aircraft
inspector) come over and give it its annual airworthiness on the UK
register and fly it that way ?

What would be the process, would I have to get an export CofA and go
through all that rigmarole and then do the Uk equivalent to transfer
the registration, even thought he aircraft is not actually being
exported ?

And I would eventually (hopefully some decade soon) be reversing the
process once I get my Greencard.

Any other common means for a non-US citizen to own an aircraft legally
in the US. I don;t want to bend any rules and I'd rather not put a
$50-80K glider on teh register under someone elses name (and
effectively make them liable for any legal/tax issues), as well as have
to trust someone with that much of an asset that I'd have to basically
lose legal rights to to transfer to them legally.

Or should I pack up my stuff and head back to blighty... :-)

Peter
You can register a corporation and make the corporation own the glider.
A UK diplomat did that when he lived in the U.S. I bought my last glider
from him.

Strictly speaking, as far as I know, the corporation has to be majority
owned by Americans... so I'm no better off, the corporation and
therefore...other people... have to own and take liability for the
aircraft.. no better than a three way partnership with two americans, and
I'd have the downside of having to file corporate tax papers each year..

As far as I've seen the System can't be circumvented... I suppose thats
the idea anyway.

It would be better if you listened a little more receptively.
AK (I think it was) wrote that you need a US corporation.
This indeed the case.
You responded, "It needs to be majority owned by Americans."
This is indeed the case.

So now, find a local lawyer in a one man shop, and ask him to set up a
corporation for you. The cost will be $200 or $300 on up. Let him
worry about the majority ownership versus the control of this aircraft.
Then register on the US register. There used to be an issue about the
station radio license for a foreign national, but I think this has now
gone away. Seek advice from an instructor in a busy school for the
loose ends re radio etc. I take it that you have acquired an FAA license
on the basis of a UK license? This is an allowable. Otherwise, you have
an FAA license ab initio, I suppose. Either way, it's not a big deal.
You can actually call the FAA licensing branch to ask for advice. Surprize!


Brian W

Charlie Papa wrote:

I'm a Canadian, but post most of my flying in my own ship in Florida
during the winter. I have mused on US registration for a while, and
my approach would be to check with a lawyer the following:

Create a Delaware corporation (great liability protection and no sales
tax) online cheaply. Lend the purchase price to the corporation as a
debenture, secured by a lien on the glider. Lease it to yourself for
$1/year net (you pay the maintenance and insurance), plus the costs
for corporate filings, with an option to buy for the purchase price.
You’ll need a US citizen to be the shareholder and President. He can
have the $1.

One attraction of the US registration to me is the no-medical-required
glider licence. I wrote the exam and did the flight test last year to
get one, and it was very timely as Transport Canada Licensing pulled
my medical when I contracted throat cancer this summer. I could even
take this glider to Canada and fly it there on the US ticket. I'll
follow the thread to see what you come up with.


This idea of a debenture and a lien etcetera etcetera is way more
clockwork than the process needs. Delaware corporation?
KISS remember?
Talk to a one man lawyer - preferably a hungry one....
There is a delay of several weeks before the pieces come together. It
doesn't take long, and you don't need a financial whiz.

Brian W

Way, WAY too much complication.

1) Expect to put less than $500 into a lawyer's efforts
to set up a corporation.
2) Check with an experienced instructor for any details of licensing
you need to handle. (I don't think there ARE any, these days...)

Brian W


tommytoyz wrote:
You just have to get creative without making it complicated. Here are
some ideas:

These should occur concurrently:
1. Lend the purchase money to a US citizen for 1 dollar in interest a
year, who then buys the plane in his/her name
2. Lease it back from him or her for 1 dollar a year with an option to
buy it in exchange for canceling the loan. Yo also have a right or
first refusal in he/she tries to sell. The agreement will also
stipulate that if he/she sells before you exercise the option, that
you receive the sales proceeds.
3. In the lease agreement, you also agree to assume all liabilities,
taxes, insurance, maintenance etc...while you operate it
4. When you sell, you
a) buy it back by canceling the loan
b) sell it concurrently with the purchase without registering it in
your name

Corporation
I think a US corporation needs a social security number to be attached
to it to start it. But later, I think a foreigner can "buy" it out
100%. You can do it that way as well I think and run everything under
the corporation. You'd need to file yearly corporate returns. If it's
just for the glider, the extra work paperwork for taxes would be
minimal.

Register in UK and fly in USA

Good luck

On Oct 24, 10:01*pm, Peter wrote:
I'm hoping to tap the voice of experience...

I've been thinking about buying a glider ever since I moved to the US,
its been 10 years now and I'm still waiting to get my Green card... yay
go USA... anyway... bitterness aside...

I know that I can't register an Aircraft on the US register unless its
owned by a US entity (person or corporation, majority),... or a Greencard
holder... bitter a little.

BUT...

Is there anything to stop me buying one and transferring it the the UK
register, but keeping it here and having my father (a UK based aircraft
inspector) come over and give it its annual airworthiness on the UK
register and fly it that way ?

What would be the process, would I have to get an export CofA and go
through all that rigmarole and then do the Uk equivalent to transfer the
registration, even thought he aircraft is not actually being exported ?

And I would eventually (hopefully some decade soon) be reversing the
process once I get my Greencard.

Any other common means for a non-US citizen to own an aircraft legally in
the US. I don;t want to bend any rules and I'd rather not put a $50-80K
glider on teh register under someone elses name (and effectively make
them liable for any legal/tax issues), as well as have to trust someone
with that much of an asset that I'd have to basically lose legal rights
to to transfer to them legally.

Or should I pack up my stuff and head back to blighty... :-)

Peter

I've known people do this, register the sailplane in their native
country. One snag might be if the glider you are buying has an
experimental cert. In the US experimental certs only allow operation
withing US borders, don't know how the UK works.

I sold a glider to a French pilot stationed temporarily in the US.
It's been nearly 20 years but as I recall, he set up a Delaware
corporation to buy and own the glider. It was pretty straightforward.
I Googled the subject and came up with the following link to a company
that seems to offer this as a service: http://www.global-inter.net/aircraft.html#nonresident

I'm not recommending them nor have I checked out the statements they
make regarding eligibility of non-U.S. citizens to set up a Delaware
corp or LLC. I've read elsewhere that not only is no state income tax
due in Delaware but so long as the corp isn't actually doing business
in Delaware, no tax return needs to be filed. I'm not sure about
whether a federal tax return must be filed annually. In other states
such as my own business-friendly state of New Jersey, the minimum tax
each year is hundreds of dollars even if there's no activity or assets
so you should check this out.

The above site also states that when it comes time to sell the glider,
the purchaser can simply buy the shares of the corporation from you
and avoid (1) paying sales tax again on the glider, and (2) having to
reregister the aircraft with the FAA. Again, I haven't checked these
out but, if true, these could add up to a lot of money saved for the
purchaser.

As always with anything like this, get some expert advice. You have
more choices now than when my glider was sold: a corporation vs. an
LLC, for example.

Good luck.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
USA

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:30:46 -0700, Chip Bearden wrote:

I sold a glider to a French pilot stationed temporarily in the US. It's
been nearly 20 years but as I recall, he set up a Delaware corporation
to buy and own the glider. It was pretty straightforward. I Googled the
subject and came up with the following link to a company that seems to
offer this as a service:
http://www.global-inter.net/aircraft.html#nonresident

I'm not recommending them nor have I checked out the statements they
make regarding eligibility of non-U.S. citizens to set up a Delaware
corp or LLC. I've read elsewhere that not only is no state income tax
due in Delaware but so long as the corp isn't actually doing business in
Delaware, no tax return needs to be filed. I'm not sure about whether a
federal tax return must be filed annually. In other states such as my
own business-friendly state of New Jersey, the minimum tax each year is
hundreds of dollars even if there's no activity or assets so you should
check this out.

The above site also states that when it comes time to sell the glider,
the purchaser can simply buy the shares of the corporation from you and
avoid (1) paying sales tax again on the glider, and (2) having to
reregister the aircraft with the FAA. Again, I haven't checked these out
but, if true, these could add up to a lot of money saved for the
purchaser.

As always with anything like this, get some expert advice. You have more
choices now than when my glider was sold: a corporation vs. an LLC, for
example.

Good luck.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
USA

Chip,

Thank you, that looks like it clears up the issue of whether the
corporation needs to be majority owned by US citizens, from the aircraft
registration eligibility requirements, the fourth option...

"a non-citizen corporation lawfully organized and doing business under
the laws of the U.S. or one of the States as long as the aircraft is
based and primarily used in the U.S. (60% of all flight hours must be
from flights starting and ending within the U.S.) An address for all
records or flight hours must me available for inspection."

Specifically allows non-citizen ownership of aircraft based and operating
in the US...awesome.

Now... I just have to find that dream glider.

Thank you for the pointer, thats a very succinct website that describes
the options, pro's and (few) cons, even for US citizens, of registering
the aircraft through a corporation.
Peter

Peter wrote:


Chip,

Thank you, that looks like it clears up the issue of whether the
corporation needs to be majority owned by US citizens, from the aircraft
registration eligibility requirements, the fourth option...

"a non-citizen corporation lawfully organized and doing business under
the laws of the U.S. or one of the States as long as the aircraft is
based and primarily used in the U.S. (60% of all flight hours must be
from flights starting and ending within the U.S.) An address for all
records or flight hours must me available for inspection."

Specifically allows non-citizen ownership of aircraft based and operating
in the US...awesome.

Now... I just have to find that dream glider.

Thank you for the pointer, thats a very succinct website that describes
the options, pro's and (few) cons, even for US citizens, of registering
the aircraft through a corporation.
Peter


More details are he http://tinyurl.com/ylrxqru