Friendly Fire Notebook

On 15 Apr 2004 12:19:16 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

The credibility was regarding the tactical forces doing the deep
strike strategic mission (and suffering 40% or higher losses for
months on end) while the strategic force was doing no-threat tactical
bomb drops in tactical support roles.

I fail to see how this is a credibility issue, the BUFF crews simply did as
they were told. During OAF the B-1s weren't "allowed" to hit targets in
downtown Belgrade while us BUFF guys went there daily (mostly at night, but not
always). From our perspective it wasn't a credibility issue, the B-1 guys were
as frustrated as we were proud.

We all do what we are told (please don't confuse me with Kramer this
AM.)

Everyone around BUFFs should be familiar with
the heritage that was forged during those eleven days.

The problem is Ed, the heritage tought by USAF PME is inaccurate and in some
cases blatently untrue. "The 11 Days of Christmas" is a book circulating
through the BUFF community, hopefully most crewmembers will get a chance to
read it.

That's a good thing. I remember a while back when you were quoting
Clodfelter to me as a demonstration of the total failure of Linebacker
II. All it did was end the war, bring the recalcitrant NVN/VC back to
the bargaining table and get the release of the POWs in six weeks.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

BUFDRVR wrote:
He's much more laid back then other Radar vets I've met. The term "BN" is short
for Bombardier Navigator, which depending on airframe could imply the job
description of operating the bombing radar, but not always. Seems the guys I've
met try to seperate themselves from non-Radar bombing types. Current RN's don't
really seem to care either way, at least most don't.

As long as they're not called GPS Bombardiers?

-HJC

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
When I recounted to him that I had been told he would take offense at
"BN"
he
looked some what quizzical, shrugged and said "No." "That's what I was, a
Radar
Navigator Bombardier."

He's much more laid back then other Radar vets I've met. The term "BN" is
short
for Bombardier Navigator, which depending on airframe could imply the job
description of operating the bombing radar, but not always. Seems the guys
I've
met try to seperate themselves from non-Radar bombing types. Current RN's
don't
really seem to care either way, at least most don't.


BUFDRVR
Never heard of a Bombardier-Navigator.
There were in WWII - Pilots, Navigators and Bombardiers.
Once the Jets came in they were sent to
Aerial Observer School at Mather as I remember and were issued anew set of
Wings and MOS (1037), never saw a pair of Navigator or Bombardier Wings
after early 1950's?
The B-47 Pilot AC's were sent to Ellington for Navigation School, then
Mather for Radar and Bombardier Schools, thus authorizing them to be rated
in 4 Specialties and wear 4 different sets of Wings. They were known as
4 -Headed Monsters!

We all do what we are told (please don't confuse me with Kramer this
AM.)

Well, then why the credibility issue with the BUFF crews? Its not like it was
there choice to fly "coconut knocking" sorties vise meaningful sorties up
north.

I remember a while back when you were quoting
Clodfelter to me as a demonstration of the total failure of Linebacker
II.

Ahh, you're miss quoting me, I never said LB II was a "total failure". What I
did say was that the NVN didn't agree to any additional stipulations in Jan
1973 that they hadn't already agreed to in Oct 1972.

All it did was end the war, bring the recalcitrant NVN/VC back to
the bargaining table and get the release of the POWs in six weeks.


Which was going to happen in Nov-Dec 1972 but for the South Vietnamese
governments "refusal" to agree with the Paris Peace Accord. Kissenger played
hardball with Thieu in Jan 73 telling him to go along with Paris or risk being
left completely alone (which, of course, he was anyway). Had Henry played
hardball in Nov 72, there would have been no reason for LB II. LB II showed the
NVN that congress wasn't prepared (yet) to cut off funding for the war, they
agreed to return to sign the already agreed upon truce, all that was left was
for SVN to give the U.S. a thumbs up, which they begrudingly did. The Freedom
Porch operations and Linebacker I did more to the end the war as far as NVN
material destruction then LB II did.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Never heard of a Bombardier-Navigator.

I believe its unique to the United States Navy....

The B-47 Pilot AC's were sent to Ellington for Navigation School, then
Mather for Radar and Bombardier Schools, thus authorizing them to be rated
in 4 Specialties and wear 4 different sets of Wings. They were known as
4 -Headed Monsters!

Interesting. Good thing they don't do that now, I've flown nearly an entire
sortie as the Navigator and I'm here to tell you I'm the worst navigator since
Marco Polo.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"Bob's Your Uncle" wrote in message
...
Never heard of a Bombardier-Navigator.
There were in WWII - Pilots, Navigators and Bombardiers.
Once the Jets came in they were sent to
Aerial Observer School at Mather as I remember and were issued anew set of
Wings and MOS (1037), never saw a pair of Navigator or Bombardier Wings
after early 1950's?
The B-47 Pilot AC's were sent to Ellington for Navigation School, then
Mather for Radar and Bombardier Schools, thus authorizing them to be rated
in 4 Specialties and wear 4 different sets of Wings. They were known as
4 -Headed Monsters!

Five examples of Bombardier-Navigators

http://www.b26.com/html/people/albert_hill.htm

http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer/Dontlookdown.htm

http://www.nebna.org/editorials.htm

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....DupreWWII.html

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher4/a26_4.html

Triple Headed Monsters

http://www.b-47.com/Navigator.htm

Regards,

Tex

Subject: Cleaning up old BUFF threads was: Friendly Fire Notebook
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 4/15/04 11:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Never heard of a Bombardier-Navigator.

I believe its unique to the United States Navy....

The B-47 Pilot AC's were sent to Ellington for Navigation School, then
Mather for Radar and Bombardier Schools, thus authorizing them to be rated
in 4 Specialties and wear 4 different sets of Wings. They were known as
4 -Headed Monsters!

Interesting. Good thing they don't do that now, I've flown nearly an entire
sortie as the Navigator and I'm here to tell you I'm the worst navigator
since
Marco Polo.


BUFDRVR

US Army Air Corp Bombardier Navigator(DR) MOS 1035. It was my MOS all during
WW II.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"Tex Houston" wrote in message
"Bob's Your Uncle" wrote in message
The B-47 Pilot AC's were sent to Ellington for Navigation School, then
Mather for Radar and Bombardier Schools, thus authorizing them to be
rated
in 4 Specialties and wear 4 different sets of Wings. They were known as
4 -Headed Monsters!


http://www.b-47.com/Navigator.htm

Regards,

Tex
In
In this reference, as is typical, the AOB who wrote the story got it wrong.
the Pilots were known as 4, count 'em 4 -headed Monsters, 1.Pilot, 2.
Navigator, 3. Bombardier, 4. Radar Observer. They were RATED in all 4
Specialties and entitled to wear all 4 sets of Wings.

This quote:"General LeMay originally had decided to fill all three crew
seats with rated pilots called "Triple Headed Monsters". This was a costly
ill-conceived idea, which was abandoned as it soon became evident that
pilots made poor radar navigators. "
is completely false.
Never was this the plan, the reason for the 4-headed Monster AC and CP was
the workload was too great for the AOB in the nose and skilled and
knowledgeable Pilots could assist the overburdened AOB.
Over 3,000 Pilots were sent through the B-47 program becoming 4-headed
Monsters!

"Bob's Your Uncle" wrote in message
...
In
In this reference, as is typical, the AOB who wrote the story got it
wrong.
the Pilots were known as 4, count 'em 4 -headed Monsters, 1.Pilot, 2.
Navigator, 3. Bombardier, 4. Radar Observer. They were RATED in all 4
Specialties and entitled to wear all 4 sets of Wings.

This quote:"General LeMay originally had decided to fill all three crew
seats with rated pilots called "Triple Headed Monsters". This was a
costly
ill-conceived idea, which was abandoned as it soon became evident that
pilots made poor radar navigators. "
is completely false.
Never was this the plan, the reason for the 4-headed Monster AC and CP was
the workload was too great for the AOB in the nose and skilled and
knowledgeable Pilots could assist the overburdened AOB.
Over 3,000 Pilots were sent through the B-47 program becoming 4-headed
Monsters!


I know of two references to multi-headed monsters in B-47 units, one, the
original program (Mather AFB?) in which the bombardier/navigator/RADAR
observer graduates were called that and two, the follow-on where some of
these people went to flight school and became pilot/bombardier/navigators
also called triple headed monsters. In no case do I ever remember
four-headed term being used. Realize this though...back then I was mostly
an air defense type and was not that familiar with B-47 units. Too bad this
subject had not come up before as I had breakfast in Phoenix last month with
a B-47 pilot.

Google had nothing on your program nor do I have a decent B-47 history.

Regards,

Tex Houston

Henry J Cobb wrote:

BUFDRVR wrote:
He's much more laid back then other Radar vets I've met. The term "BN" is short
for Bombardier Navigator, which depending on airframe could imply the job
description of operating the bombing radar, but not always. Seems the guys I've
met try to seperate themselves from non-Radar bombing types. Current RN's don't
really seem to care either way, at least most don't.

As long as they're not called GPS Bombardiers?

Hey - now that's an idea: the QB-52 UCAV. Beats hell out
of predators; plenty of loiter time and *bunches* more
munitions...

Ducking...