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Soaring not compatible with modern society?



 
 
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  #21  
Old May 6th 18, 05:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Soaring not compatible with modern society?

On Saturday, May 5, 2018 at 2:27:22 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I'm the not expensive guy and in relative terms flying gliders is not expensive. Do you know any horse people? Lots of horses around and many private owners spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on equestrian activity and there are orders of magnitude more horse people than glider pilots. Youth hockey is more expensive than learning to fly gliders. Know any sailboat people. Ask them how much cash the hole in the water takes to fill up. Lots of boats costing the same as a mid performance glider are on the water. Cost is a perceived barrier to entry.

As for allowing the insurance company to carry the financial risk. That's what it's for. I'm not advocating reckless flying. I am saying the insurance covers you financially on your investment so if you orang the thing you are not out the whole thing.

The drag if dinging a ship is the inconvenience of it and not necessarily the loss of cash. Most pilots who damage a glider set over the money pretty fast but not having convenient access to their toy is the painful part. We can make more money but time is gone once spent. We are never getting the summer back we lost when we damage a glider. We do recover the cash to have another go.


I've always agreed that cost is not the limiting factor to the growth of soaring in any way and wonder why any of us actually think that. Skiing, golf, horses, you name it, many people spend far more doing those than you would need to for soaring. Of the population who have all the required discretionary funds, we need a tiny percentage of that group to become involved in soaring to grow soaring exponentially. I think the biggest barrier is that it is more solitary and anti-social than how most people want to spend their leisure time. Most people just simply don't want to be in a single seat glider cockpit for most of their valuable spare time. And most glider clubs are NOT places anyone wants to "hang out", unless you are already an obsessed glider pilot. We should build glider clubs with year round swimming pools and tennis courts. If your kids wanted to go to the gliderport, and the parents could watch the game and have a beer if they weren't flying, participation would go way up. I'm single and don't have kids but I have friends with them that would join a glider club just for the pool...
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  #22  
Old May 6th 18, 07:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Foster
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Default Soaring not compatible with modern society?

On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 10:56:20 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Saturday, May 5, 2018 at 2:27:22 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I'm the not expensive guy and in relative terms flying gliders is not expensive. Do you know any horse people? Lots of horses around and many private owners spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on equestrian activity and there are orders of magnitude more horse people than glider pilots. Youth hockey is more expensive than learning to fly gliders. Know any sailboat people. Ask them how much cash the hole in the water takes to fill up. Lots of boats costing the same as a mid performance glider are on the water. Cost is a perceived barrier to entry.

As for allowing the insurance company to carry the financial risk. That's what it's for. I'm not advocating reckless flying. I am saying the insurance covers you financially on your investment so if you orang the thing you are not out the whole thing.

The drag if dinging a ship is the inconvenience of it and not necessarily the loss of cash. Most pilots who damage a glider set over the money pretty fast but not having convenient access to their toy is the painful part. We can make more money but time is gone once spent. We are never getting the summer back we lost when we damage a glider. We do recover the cash to have another go.


I've always agreed that cost is not the limiting factor to the growth of soaring in any way and wonder why any of us actually think that. Skiing, golf, horses, you name it, many people spend far more doing those than you would need to for soaring. Of the population who have all the required discretionary funds, we need a tiny percentage of that group to become involved in soaring to grow soaring exponentially. I think the biggest barrier is that it is more solitary and anti-social than how most people want to spend their leisure time. Most people just simply don't want to be in a single seat glider cockpit for most of their valuable spare time. And most glider clubs are NOT places anyone wants to "hang out", unless you are already an obsessed glider pilot. We should build glider clubs with year round swimming pools and tennis courts. If your kids wanted to go to the gliderport, and the parents could watch the game and have a beer if they weren't flying, participation would go way up. I'm single and don't have kids but I have friends with them that would join a glider club just for the pool...


While I agree that you don't have to have a lot of money to spend to get into soaring, there is a PERCEPTION amongst the general public that anything to do with aviation is expensive. I think that is a major limiting factor to why GA is dying as a whole. I see soaring, particularly in the club setting, as a way to combat that.
  #23  
Old May 7th 18, 07:28 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Default Soaring not compatible with modern society?

On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 11:35:09 AM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 10:56:20 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Saturday, May 5, 2018 at 2:27:22 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I'm the not expensive guy and in relative terms flying gliders is not expensive. Do you know any horse people? Lots of horses around and many private owners spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on equestrian activity and there are orders of magnitude more horse people than glider pilots. Youth hockey is more expensive than learning to fly gliders. Know any sailboat people. Ask them how much cash the hole in the water takes to fill up. Lots of boats costing the same as a mid performance glider are on the water. Cost is a perceived barrier to entry.

As for allowing the insurance company to carry the financial risk. That's what it's for. I'm not advocating reckless flying. I am saying the insurance covers you financially on your investment so if you orang the thing you are not out the whole thing.

The drag if dinging a ship is the inconvenience of it and not necessarily the loss of cash. Most pilots who damage a glider set over the money pretty fast but not having convenient access to their toy is the painful part. We can make more money but time is gone once spent. We are never getting the summer back we lost when we damage a glider. We do recover the cash to have another go.


I've always agreed that cost is not the limiting factor to the growth of soaring in any way and wonder why any of us actually think that. Skiing, golf, horses, you name it, many people spend far more doing those than you would need to for soaring. Of the population who have all the required discretionary funds, we need a tiny percentage of that group to become involved in soaring to grow soaring exponentially. I think the biggest barrier is that it is more solitary and anti-social than how most people want to spend their leisure time. Most people just simply don't want to be in a single seat glider cockpit for most of their valuable spare time. And most glider clubs are NOT places anyone wants to "hang out", unless you are already an obsessed glider pilot. We should build glider clubs with year round swimming pools and tennis courts. If your kids wanted to go to the gliderport, and the parents could watch the game and have a beer if they weren't flying, participation would go way up. I'm single and don't have kids but I have friends with them that would join a glider club just for the pool...


While I agree that you don't have to have a lot of money to spend to get into soaring, there is a PERCEPTION amongst the general public that anything to do with aviation is expensive. I think that is a major limiting factor to why GA is dying as a whole. I see soaring, particularly in the club setting, as a way to combat that.


There IS a straight-forward way to improve your, and the other aircraft you share the sky with, safety: install a transponder. I realize there are many locations where this will no make sense, but for the others, don't put it off. I also have a Powerflarm that displays transponder targets. I just installed a new traffic warning display, an Air Avionics ATD-57, that should greatly reduce the pilot workload in picking up conflicting traffic.

Note: I bought my first transponder after flying out of Minden one year. I was over Virginia City, and thought it prudent to talk to Reno Approach. They were VERY interested in my position and altitude, which resolved a conflict. They told me to look up, and sure enough, a Southwest 737 emerged from the clouds about 1000 ft above me. That convinced me.
  #24  
Old May 7th 18, 03:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Soaring not compatible with modern society?

Couple of comments. As Kevin mentions soaring is cheap. 1-26s and HPs can be found for less than 5K these days. You can spend more on a moped. As for landouts, I get the PIA part, and I get the don't want to risk damage part as well. Was recently re-reading Kai Gertsen's excellent Off Airport Landings book and in the intro the author says at the time of writing he had 169 off airport landings. I don't think anyone is landing out that much anymore, something changed. Cost of gliders can't be all of it, 169 bad field landings would put a dent in anyone's wallet.
For the original question if culture comes from the universities we are in trouble. Penn state recently banned its Outing club from going outing they “made the determination that the hiking, canoeing, kayaking, trail building and camping activities the student-led club has long engaged in are too risky,”.
Spelunking club and Scuba club also stopped. Government is full of the same types as university administrators. People that believe hiking is too dangerous for college students, imagine if they knew we let 14 years solo?

  #25  
Old May 7th 18, 03:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Wyll Surf Air
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Default Soaring not compatible with modern society?

I'm going to have to disagree on the statement that soaring is not expensive. Yes it may not be as pricy as other things but for the masses, especially the younger masses, it is still a lot of money for a leisure activity.

I am the new members coordinator for Akaflieg SLO, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo' s soaring club and I deal with this reality every day. We do training with the CCSC (one of the cheapest glider clubs in California) and we even have a deal with one of the CFIG's for reduced rates, but still one of the main reasons we don't have more then 3 or 4 collage students out training each weekend is price. It may be pretty cheep to get a tow once you have your license and your own glider, but training can be quite expensive. I just wanted to pit that perspective out there that many young people want to soar, and many do, but a lot if others are put off by the cost of training.
  #26  
Old May 7th 18, 04:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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Default Soaring not compatible with modern society?

On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 10:56:20 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Saturday, May 5, 2018 at 2:27:22 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I'm the not expensive guy and in relative terms flying gliders is not expensive. Do you know any horse people? Lots of horses around and many private owners spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on equestrian activity and there are orders of magnitude more horse people than glider pilots. Youth hockey is more expensive than learning to fly gliders. Know any sailboat people. Ask them how much cash the hole in the water takes to fill up. Lots of boats costing the same as a mid performance glider are on the water. Cost is a perceived barrier to entry.

As for allowing the insurance company to carry the financial risk. That's what it's for. I'm not advocating reckless flying. I am saying the insurance covers you financially on your investment so if you orang the thing you are not out the whole thing.

The drag if dinging a ship is the inconvenience of it and not necessarily the loss of cash. Most pilots who damage a glider set over the money pretty fast but not having convenient access to their toy is the painful part. We can make more money but time is gone once spent. We are never getting the summer back we lost when we damage a glider. We do recover the cash to have another go.


I've always agreed that cost is not the limiting factor to the growth of soaring in any way and wonder why any of us actually think that. Skiing, golf, horses, you name it, many people spend far more doing those than you would need to for soaring. Of the population who have all the required discretionary funds, we need a tiny percentage of that group to become involved in soaring to grow soaring exponentially. I think the biggest barrier is that it is more solitary and anti-social than how most people want to spend their leisure time. Most people just simply don't want to be in a single seat glider cockpit for most of their valuable spare time. And most glider clubs are NOT places anyone wants to "hang out", unless you are already an obsessed glider pilot. We should build glider clubs with year round swimming pools and tennis courts. If your kids wanted to go to the gliderport, and the parents could watch the game and have a beer if they weren't flying, participation would go way up. I'm single and don't have kids but I have friends with them that would join a glider club just for the pool...


I don't think money is a significant factor. Ease of entry certainly is a factor. I once checked on a lapsed SSA member who turned out to be president of a local Corvette owners club. He tried gliding and gave it a week. As he hadn't soloed, he gave it up. Turn key activities have more appeal for many.

Similar response from a power pilot who shared this. Complains of the expense, but now owns a back country 182 and a 210 for pavement. See the about the author.
https://disciplesofflight.com/glider-rating/

The most amazing, to me, is snowmobiling. Participants in the US and Canada spend $9B year.
http://www.snowmobilers.org/economic...wmobiling.aspx
http://www.snowmobile.org/docs/isma-...-fact-book.pdf

My first club in the UK had no picnic table or club house, yet it was family friendly and had moderate temps during the soaring season. Midges and green flies could be a nuisance at times. Most appreciated a day in the country, would spread a picnic blanket for lunch and stay the day and retire to the local pub from an evening meal and lively conversation amid rounds of drinks. We also had to rig and derig the fleet daily. Of course, to get a lesson you had to show up early, help rig, and get your name on the list early. If you got there early enough to be among the first six on the list, you might get a second lesson on the day.

My current club exists in a much harsher environment of temperature extremes, some winds, and potentially violent weather. Mice and rattlesnakes and flies are local nuisances. Apart from the club house, very little effort on pilot or family comfort, no spray misters, no cover on the patio though it gets PM shade from the building. Those have been suggested, but never accomplished. Other suggestions have included basketball hoop (supplied but never mounted, trashed on clean-up day), frisbee golf, zip line, above ground swimming pool, and RV hookups. Online scheduling, so only a few remain for the day of those using the club fleet, thus no significant social aspect apart from an occasional cookout or meeting or retreat to a local restaurant by 5-10 after flying, rarely including spouses.

It's a hard nut to crack.

Frank Whiteley





  #27  
Old May 7th 18, 06:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
K m
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Default Soaring not compatible with modern society?

On Saturday, May 5, 2018 at 2:15:07 AM UTC-7, Dave Walsh wrote:
Landing into an unknown farmers field is idiotic, why would
you willingly strap multi thousands of $'s of carbon fibre to
your backside and choose to land in a field?


This is one of the more "Idiotic" statements Ive seen on RAS. Do you have better suggestions on where to land out? Have farmers not created an inviting nuisance with their large flat and mostly unobstructed fields. Here's a newsflash, land outs are a part of the sport just like assembly, CAC checks, flat trailer tires, etc..
Keep us posted if you come up with a better option than farm fields.
Kirk
And to those who think soaring is expensive, it is. The question to ask; Is it worth it....
  #28  
Old May 7th 18, 06:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Soaring not compatible with modern society?

On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 10:35:55 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Couple of comments. As Kevin mentions soaring is cheap. 1-26s and HPs can be found for less than 5K these days. You can spend more on a moped. As for landouts, I get the PIA part, and I get the don't want to risk damage part as well. Was recently re-reading Kai Gertsen's excellent Off Airport Landings book and in the intro the author says at the time of writing he had 169 off airport landings. I don't think anyone is landing out that much anymore, something changed. Cost of gliders can't be all of it, 169 bad field landings would put a dent in anyone's wallet.
For the original question if culture comes from the universities we are in trouble. Penn state recently banned its Outing club from going outing they “made the determination that the hiking, canoeing, kayaking, trail building and camping activities the student-led club has long engaged in are too risky,”.
Spelunking club and Scuba club also stopped. Government is full of the same types as university administrators. People that believe hiking is too dangerous for college students, imagine if they knew we let 14 years solo?


Yikes. I remember the Cornell Outing Club in the 1980's with fondness, who knows what it's allowed to do now. I've heard of a bee-keeping course (elsewhere) that uses videos instead of hands-on experiences. That way nobody will get stung. Nor learn much. We do have a risk-averse culture now, but an even bigger part is lawsuit-averse management, given the presence of a million lawyers, and juries that think zillion-dollar pain-and-suffering awards are paid by the money tree.
  #29  
Old May 7th 18, 06:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Soaring not compatible with modern society?

On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 1:36:54 PM UTC-4, K m wrote:
On Saturday, May 5, 2018 at 2:15:07 AM UTC-7, Dave Walsh wrote:
Landing into an unknown farmers field is idiotic, why would
you willingly strap multi thousands of $'s of carbon fibre to
your backside and choose to land in a field?


This is one of the more "Idiotic" statements Ive seen on RAS. Do you have better suggestions on where to land out? Have farmers not created an inviting nuisance with their large flat and mostly unobstructed fields. Here's a newsflash, land outs are a part of the sport just like assembly, CAC checks, flat trailer tires, etc..
Keep us posted if you come up with a better option than farm fields.
Kirk
And to those who think soaring is expensive, it is. The question to ask; Is it worth it....


I think he meant that pilots avoid landouts on farmer fields by investing the big money into motorized gliders, which (usually) allows them to motor away from a landout. One can also avoid landouts by staying close to airfields. Yes in many areas that means not flying the possible distance for the day. I had a non-roadworthy trailer and a hard-to-rig glider for a while, and suffered that fate. Now I fly farther in a glider with lower performance.
  #30  
Old May 7th 18, 08:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Default Soaring not compatible with modern society?

When I was flying my Nimbus4, I used airports as alternates. I really did not want to risk putting that bird anywhere and in over 400 hours, virtually all XC time, I never put it in a field, other than an airfield.


If you haven't priced a new glider, you might be surprised to find they are over $200K now. That is a lot of $ to put into a farmer's field of unknown hazards. Having said this, I did have a land out last summer on a "dryish" lake, but I really try to have landouts be at other airports.


On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 10:36:54 AM UTC-7, K m wrote:
On Saturday, May 5, 2018 at 2:15:07 AM UTC-7, Dave Walsh wrote:
Landing into an unknown farmers field is idiotic, why would
you willingly strap multi thousands of $'s of carbon fibre to
your backside and choose to land in a field?


This is one of the more "Idiotic" statements Ive seen on RAS. Do you have better suggestions on where to land out? Have farmers not created an inviting nuisance with their large flat and mostly unobstructed fields. Here's a newsflash, land outs are a part of the sport just like assembly, CAC checks, flat trailer tires, etc..
Keep us posted if you come up with a better option than farm fields.
Kirk
And to those who think soaring is expensive, it is. The question to ask; Is it worth it....


 




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