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Glide computer in certified glider



 
 
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  #21  
Old May 11th 18, 02:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 484
Default Glide computer in certified glider

On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 11:36:41 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 10:17:00 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 6:39:26 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 6:24:07 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:

I didn't know that you were an A&P.

Tom

I'm not, and I think you know that. But I do know enough about ADS-B Out to have an intelligent conversation with owners and A&Ps. I've worked with vendors, resellers, STC holders and A&Ps on ADS-B Out install related issues in gliders. And my point there is for type certified gliders work though an A&P otherwise its academic what anybody (including me) thinks,... you need the person who is actually going to do the work/sign the log book to be involved. Which goes back to the point Bob was making by quoting that great AOPA article. I can help with some technical ADS-B questions or provide better contacts to folks, but an A&P really needs to be involved from early on.


I suspected it, but wanted to be sure. In that case, you are not an authoritative source on the subject. Yet, you tell others NOT to go to an authoritative source, the FAA - unbelievable! At the end of the day, we all HAVE to answer to the FAA - that is just the way it is, so get used to it.

Tom


Tom you need to stop misrepresenting what I'm saying. I don't know how to make it simpler for you. I am not saying don't ask the FSDO, I am suggesting doing so *if needed* by going through the A&P doing the work, and be aware of some potential issues before doing that. And in the case of ADS-B Out I've tried to help people by pointing to the main FAA policy document to read. That is the document the FSDO staff are following and will quote when you ask them questions. That may well answer any questions by itself. Have you even read it?

Most A&Ps understand what they are doing, they likely don't need to contact the FSDO or if they do they know exactly who to go to and how to ask questions. They may not appreciate owners contacting a FSDO and creating unneeded confusion or work. It could be a unfortunate way for an owner to ruin a working relationship with their A&P.

I've seen people have issues with ADS-B Out and TABS misunderstandings with their FSDO and I'm trying to help other people avoid similar problems. Are you actually involved in any ADS-B Out or TABS installs? Have you every installed/configured an ADS-B Out system? Dealt with any of FSDO issues related to ADS-B Out installs? Have you helped work with vendors and STC owners to get those STCs available for gliders? Do A&Ps contact you for help doing installs or paperwork or for help when they talk to their FSDO staff? I suspect that's no in all regards for you. Yes for me. But don't let not actually having done anything stop you having lots of opinion here.

Do you even care that your simplistic "contact the FSDO" advice to owners without any caution or extra info might cause people problems? Ah **** it, what the hell, it won't be your problem...


Here is what you wrote, in case you forgot:

"If you have to ask these questions you probably should not be contacting a FSDO. Asking questions there can possibly end you up in a world of hurt and confusion."

What part of "hurt and confusion" don't you understand or remember?

The question WAS NOT about ADS-B Out, In, or whatever; it was about adding a non-TSO'd instrument to the panel. Did you forget that also?

Now, you compound it with "They may not appreciate owners contacting a FSDO and creating unneeded confusion or work." As if you KNOW what any A&P is thinking, which you DON'T!

Let's review: you ARE NOT an A&P, you HAVE NOT talked to ANY A&P to back up your concocted statements, and you are HOPING that we will swallow your bluster as FACT. Well, it ISN'T and we WON'T.

Tom
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  #22  
Old May 11th 18, 03:05 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,158
Default Glide computer in certified glider

On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 6:52:43 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 11:36:41 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 10:17:00 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 6:39:26 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 6:24:07 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:

I didn't know that you were an A&P.

Tom

I'm not, and I think you know that. But I do know enough about ADS-B Out to have an intelligent conversation with owners and A&Ps. I've worked with vendors, resellers, STC holders and A&Ps on ADS-B Out install related issues in gliders. And my point there is for type certified gliders work though an A&P otherwise its academic what anybody (including me) thinks,.... you need the person who is actually going to do the work/sign the log book to be involved. Which goes back to the point Bob was making by quoting that great AOPA article. I can help with some technical ADS-B questions or provide better contacts to folks, but an A&P really needs to be involved from early on.

I suspected it, but wanted to be sure. In that case, you are not an authoritative source on the subject. Yet, you tell others NOT to go to an authoritative source, the FAA - unbelievable! At the end of the day, we all HAVE to answer to the FAA - that is just the way it is, so get used to it.

Tom


Tom you need to stop misrepresenting what I'm saying. I don't know how to make it simpler for you. I am not saying don't ask the FSDO, I am suggesting doing so *if needed* by going through the A&P doing the work, and be aware of some potential issues before doing that. And in the case of ADS-B Out I've tried to help people by pointing to the main FAA policy document to read. That is the document the FSDO staff are following and will quote when you ask them questions. That may well answer any questions by itself. Have you even read it?

Most A&Ps understand what they are doing, they likely don't need to contact the FSDO or if they do they know exactly who to go to and how to ask questions. They may not appreciate owners contacting a FSDO and creating unneeded confusion or work. It could be a unfortunate way for an owner to ruin a working relationship with their A&P.

I've seen people have issues with ADS-B Out and TABS misunderstandings with their FSDO and I'm trying to help other people avoid similar problems.. Are you actually involved in any ADS-B Out or TABS installs? Have you every installed/configured an ADS-B Out system? Dealt with any of FSDO issues related to ADS-B Out installs? Have you helped work with vendors and STC owners to get those STCs available for gliders? Do A&Ps contact you for help doing installs or paperwork or for help when they talk to their FSDO staff? I suspect that's no in all regards for you. Yes for me. But don't let not actually having done anything stop you having lots of opinion here.

Do you even care that your simplistic "contact the FSDO" advice to owners without any caution or extra info might cause people problems? Ah **** it, what the hell, it won't be your problem...


Here is what you wrote, in case you forgot:

"If you have to ask these questions you probably should not be contacting a FSDO. Asking questions there can possibly end you up in a world of hurt and confusion."

What part of "hurt and confusion" don't you understand or remember?

The question WAS NOT about ADS-B Out, In, or whatever; it was about adding a non-TSO'd instrument to the panel. Did you forget that also?

Now, you compound it with "They may not appreciate owners contacting a FSDO and creating unneeded confusion or work." As if you KNOW what any A&P is thinking, which you DON'T!

Let's review: you ARE NOT an A&P, you HAVE NOT talked to ANY A&P to back up your concocted statements, and you are HOPING that we will swallow your bluster as FACT. Well, it ISN'T and we WON'T.

Tom


You are a first class idiot who likes to hear himself talk. I think people her can weigh your advice at face value.
  #23  
Old May 11th 18, 03:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 342
Default Glide computer in certified glider

" I think people here can weigh your advice at face value."

I don't think his advice is coming from his face.

Darryl- keep giving us updates and explanations of the confusing ADS-B requirements. I appreciate it, as I am weighing my choices.



  #24  
Old May 11th 18, 03:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,023
Default Glide computer in certified glider

On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 7:05:46 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:

Tom


You are a first class idiot who likes to hear himself talk. I think people her can weigh your advice at face value.


I am going to go with Darryl on this too. Not only can Darryl quickly assess another poster's deep character flaws, he is an expert on the FAA alphabet soup and has done much to improve glider pilot's understanding of this complex system.
  #25  
Old May 11th 18, 03:36 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 484
Default Glide computer in certified glider

On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 7:05:46 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 6:52:43 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 11:36:41 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 10:17:00 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 6:39:26 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 6:24:07 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:

I didn't know that you were an A&P.

Tom

I'm not, and I think you know that. But I do know enough about ADS-B Out to have an intelligent conversation with owners and A&Ps. I've worked with vendors, resellers, STC holders and A&Ps on ADS-B Out install related issues in gliders. And my point there is for type certified gliders work though an A&P otherwise its academic what anybody (including me) thinks,... you need the person who is actually going to do the work/sign the log book to be involved. Which goes back to the point Bob was making by quoting that great AOPA article. I can help with some technical ADS-B questions or provide better contacts to folks, but an A&P really needs to be involved from early on.

I suspected it, but wanted to be sure. In that case, you are not an authoritative source on the subject. Yet, you tell others NOT to go to an authoritative source, the FAA - unbelievable! At the end of the day, we all HAVE to answer to the FAA - that is just the way it is, so get used to it.

Tom

Tom you need to stop misrepresenting what I'm saying. I don't know how to make it simpler for you. I am not saying don't ask the FSDO, I am suggesting doing so *if needed* by going through the A&P doing the work, and be aware of some potential issues before doing that. And in the case of ADS-B Out I've tried to help people by pointing to the main FAA policy document to read. That is the document the FSDO staff are following and will quote when you ask them questions. That may well answer any questions by itself. Have you even read it?

Most A&Ps understand what they are doing, they likely don't need to contact the FSDO or if they do they know exactly who to go to and how to ask questions. They may not appreciate owners contacting a FSDO and creating unneeded confusion or work. It could be a unfortunate way for an owner to ruin a working relationship with their A&P.

I've seen people have issues with ADS-B Out and TABS misunderstandings with their FSDO and I'm trying to help other people avoid similar problems. Are you actually involved in any ADS-B Out or TABS installs? Have you every installed/configured an ADS-B Out system? Dealt with any of FSDO issues related to ADS-B Out installs? Have you helped work with vendors and STC owners to get those STCs available for gliders? Do A&Ps contact you for help doing installs or paperwork or for help when they talk to their FSDO staff? I suspect that's no in all regards for you. Yes for me. But don't let not actually having done anything stop you having lots of opinion here.

Do you even care that your simplistic "contact the FSDO" advice to owners without any caution or extra info might cause people problems? Ah **** it, what the hell, it won't be your problem...


Here is what you wrote, in case you forgot:

"If you have to ask these questions you probably should not be contacting a FSDO. Asking questions there can possibly end you up in a world of hurt and confusion."

What part of "hurt and confusion" don't you understand or remember?

The question WAS NOT about ADS-B Out, In, or whatever; it was about adding a non-TSO'd instrument to the panel. Did you forget that also?

Now, you compound it with "They may not appreciate owners contacting a FSDO and creating unneeded confusion or work." As if you KNOW what any A&P is thinking, which you DON'T!

Let's review: you ARE NOT an A&P, you HAVE NOT talked to ANY A&P to back up your concocted statements, and you are HOPING that we will swallow your bluster as FACT. Well, it ISN'T and we WON'T.

Tom


You are a first class idiot who likes to hear himself talk. I think people her can weigh your advice at face value.


For the record: you have just conceded the argument (but it wasn't a fair fight to begin with!).

Tom
  #26  
Old May 11th 18, 03:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 342
Default Glide computer in certified glider

So, 2G (Tom), are YOU an A&P or IA? We know Darryl's qualifications from his cogent ant consistent advice. What are your qualifications?
  #27  
Old May 11th 18, 03:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 484
Default Glide computer in certified glider

On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 7:10:29 PM UTC-7, wrote:
" I think people here can weigh your advice at face value."

I don't think his advice is coming from his face.

Darryl- keep giving us updates and explanations of the confusing ADS-B requirements. I appreciate it, as I am weighing my choices.


So, you think I am full of **** by saying:

"But, by all means, call your local FSDO for clarification. And, if you make the request in writing, the FAA will give you a formal determination."

That is what this is all about.

Tom
  #28  
Old May 11th 18, 07:35 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Kuykendall
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Posts: 1,217
Default Glide computer in certified glider

On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 7:48:12 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
So, you think I am full of ****...


I wouldn't have put it in so few words.
  #29  
Old May 12th 18, 11:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 484
Default Glide computer in certified glider

On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 11:35:08 PM UTC-7, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 7:48:12 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
So, you think I am full of ****...


I wouldn't have put it in so few words.


If you do call the FAA for guidance, they will likely refer you Advisory Circular AC 43-210A (https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...AC_43-210A.pdf) “Standardized Procedures for Obtaining Approval of Data Used in the Performance of Major Repairs and Major Alterations.” This covers what constitutes a minor repair:

“3.2.2 Determine the Repair or Alteration Classification. Determine if the repair/alteration is a minor change in type design (as defined in 14 CFR part 21, § 21.93) to the product’s type design; and if so, is it a major or a minor repair/alteration. To determine if a repair/alteration is major or minor, refer to part 43 appendix A. Figure 3-2, Determination of Major or Minor Alteration or Repair, is a flowchart of the field approval evaluation process based on part 43 appendix A.”

The regulation referenced, 14 CFR part 21, § 21.93, explicitly defines what constitutes a minor repair (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/21.93):

"(a) In addition to changes in type design specified in paragraph (b) of this section, changes in type design are classified as minor and major. A “minor change” is one that has no appreciable effect on the weight, balance, structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other characteristics affecting the airworthiness of the product. All other changes are “major changes” (except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section)."

The addition of instrument not required for certification constitutes a minor alteration (unless it affects the performance of required instrumentation) and meets the above criteria. An FAA airframe inspector are available to answer any questions concerning these regulations. My experience with FAA inspectors is they are really trying to make compliance as easy as possible and are not trying to make your life miserable.

Tom
  #30  
Old May 14th 18, 01:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
mikesta[email protected]
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Posts: 42
Default Glide computer in certified glider

Tom , I suggest when you are already in a hole you stop digging.
Remeber, it is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it.
 




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