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Reducing collision hazard at contests



 
 
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  #31  
Old May 16th 18, 10:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sierra Whiskey
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Default Reducing collision hazard at contests

No more rules. Just race.

This is the gliding equivalent of drafting in cycling, NASCAR, Speed Skating, Etc. All of which could cause serious or fatal injuries if done wrong.

Penalizing pilots for flying in close proximity to each other serves no purpose. Heads outside the cockpit, stop staring at the gadgets and gizmos, and go have a good old fashioned race!
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  #32  
Old May 16th 18, 11:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Chris Rowland[_2_]
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Default Reducing collision hazard at contests

At 21:14 16 May 2018, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
No more rules. Just race.

This is the gliding equivalent of drafting in cycling, NASCAR, Speed
Skating, Etc. All of which could cause serious or fatal injuries if done
wrong.

Penalizing pilots for flying in close proximity to each other serves no
purpose. Heads outside the cockpit, stop staring at the gadgets and

gizmos,
and go have a good old fashioned race!


As I see it the only practical way to prevent large groups of pilots
staying together is to do it in the same way as they do in cycling and
rallying - have a time trial where each pilot starts at a different time.
A sport where everyone starts at the same time, or at a time of the
participant's choosing, will lead to some sort of interaction between them.
Look at match racing in sailing, it's all about using the rules of sailing
to beat your opponent.

This means doing away with the pilot going through a start line at a time
of their choosing and goes to starting at the start of the flight. This is
how it used to be before the days of start lines and loggers.

Do competitors want to do this? Competition gliding has been trying to
move away from this towards pilots having the choice of exactly when to
start and this will inevitably led to grouping. It may not make you go
faster than your opponent but it can help you avoid doing worse.

Chris



  #33  
Old May 17th 18, 01:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Reducing collision hazard at contests

As regards "leeching" (as opposed to "leaching, with reference to a soluble chemical or mineral, drain away from soil, ash, or similar material by the action of percolating liquid, especially rainwater)

Remember George Moffat's famous quote. "There just isn't a variometer like another sailplane."
  #34  
Old May 18th 18, 06:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Pat Russell[_2_]
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Default Reducing collision hazard at contests

3. Change the scoring formula so that fencing risks becomes a less of a winning strategy. Today you get no reward for being the lone finisher and are heavily penalized for being the lone outlander. The scoring formula heavily incentivizes sticking to the gaggle. There are plenty of ways to change this.

Here's one of them:
https://www.fai.org/sites/default/fi...r_1_p rop.pdf
  #35  
Old May 20th 18, 12:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Koerner
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Default Reducing collision hazard at contests

Thanks for the many considered responses here that came from competition pilots. It is good to know that the US proposal to FAI was accepted. After reading the material that Ron Gleason linked, it’s pretty obvious that the US improved scoring method will reduce the gaggle incentive that is so evident at the WGC level. This is sure to improve the WGC mid-air statistics over the long run and make for a better contest for the other reasons cited as well.

The suggestion of my original post would likely go much further to reduce gaggling and improve safety yet there were quite a few concerns expressed - a couple of which I think are valid.

The suggestion #2 made by Alex in his May 16 comment, is quite an excellent idea. I now would lend my support to that idea as the best solution -- better really than my own suggestion at the top of the thread.

After thinking about it, I would suggest a small change to Alex’s #2 proposal. Alex said that each contestant picks his own three secret start times for each day. That would be itself something of a burdensome process and could lead to collusion scenarios among contestants. Here would be my alternative suggestion wherein the contest sets everyone’s start times:

At the beginning of the contest, each contestant is given a list of unique secret start times, one for each contest day. Each such start time is a randomly generated number between 0 and 19. This sheet of start times is analogous to the the sheet of grid positions that we are typically given at the start of contests except that it is custom created for each contestant and is delivered in secret (probably sent to contestants by email). The number for each day is your modulo-20 start time. An example: For day 1, my secret number is 7. That means that my start will be scored as 12:07 or 12:27 or 12:47 or 13:07 or …. Let’s say that the gate opens on day 1 at 12:15, I can start immediately at 12:15 which would be wasting 8 minutes or I could hold off until one of my later start times. This system will most surely spread the field. It will reduce gaggle tendency, reduce start time roulette and reduce leeching. Safety will be improved quite a bit.

As a small further refinement, a massage of the random numbers could ensure even better spreading so that for a field of less than 21 contestants, no two contestants get the same secret number and for a field between 21 and 41, no more than two pilots get the same time assignment, etc.

This might lead to some interesting, and I think harmless, pre-launch interaction among contestants. Those who are most concerned about leeching will surely want to keep their secret number secret. Those lower on the score sheet might choose to publish their start time with the hope of finding out in advance who they will be starting with for the day and perhaps getting a little advantage in arranging to fly together before the start.

Can contest pilots get behind this type of approach?

  #36  
Old May 20th 18, 03:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Reducing collision hazard at contests

Suppose all pilots would be required to have a semi-loud, annoying, Beep - Beep - Beep sound whenever they were in close proximity to another glider?

Tom Knauff
  #37  
Old May 20th 18, 03:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
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Default Reducing collision hazard at contests

On Sunday, May 20, 2018 at 10:10:12 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Suppose all pilots would be required to have a semi-loud, annoying,
Beep - Beep - Beep sound
whenever they were in close proximity to another glider?

Tom Knauff


They already do - its called a vario.
  #38  
Old May 20th 18, 04:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Matt Herron Jr.
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Default Reducing collision hazard at contests

On Saturday, May 19, 2018 at 4:47:53 PM UTC-7, Steve Koerner wrote:
Thanks for the many considered responses here that came from competition pilots. It is good to know that the US proposal to FAI was accepted. After reading the material that Ron Gleason linked, it’s pretty obvious that the US improved scoring method will reduce the gaggle incentive that is so evident at the WGC level. This is sure to improve the WGC mid-air statistics over the long run and make for a better contest for the other reasons cited as well.

The suggestion of my original post would likely go much further to reduce gaggling and improve safety yet there were quite a few concerns expressed - a couple of which I think are valid.

The suggestion #2 made by Alex in his May 16 comment, is quite an excellent idea. I now would lend my support to that idea as the best solution -- better really than my own suggestion at the top of the thread.

After thinking about it, I would suggest a small change to Alex’s #2 proposal. Alex said that each contestant picks his own three secret start times for each day. That would be itself something of a burdensome process and could lead to collusion scenarios among contestants. Here would be my alternative suggestion wherein the contest sets everyone’s start times:

At the beginning of the contest, each contestant is given a list of unique secret start times, one for each contest day. Each such start time is a randomly generated number between 0 and 19. This sheet of start times is analogous to the the sheet of grid positions that we are typically given at the start of contests except that it is custom created for each contestant and is delivered in secret (probably sent to contestants by email). The number for each day is your modulo-20 start time. An example: For day 1, my secret number is 7. That means that my start will be scored as 12:07 or 12:27 or 12:47 or 13:07 or …. Let’s say that the gate opens on day 1 at 12:15, I can start immediately at 12:15 which would be wasting 8 minutes or I could hold off until one of my later start times. This system will most surely spread the field. It will reduce gaggle tendency, reduce start time roulette and reduce leeching. Safety will be improved quite a bit.

As a small further refinement, a massage of the random numbers could ensure even better spreading so that for a field of less than 21 contestants, no two contestants get the same secret number and for a field between 21 and 41, no more than two pilots get the same time assignment, etc.

This might lead to some interesting, and I think harmless, pre-launch interaction among contestants. Those who are most concerned about leeching will surely want to keep their secret number secret. Those lower on the score sheet might choose to publish their start time with the hope of finding out in advance who they will be starting with for the day and perhaps getting a little advantage in arranging to fly together before the start.

Can contest pilots get behind this type of approach?


I like your idea Steve. Lets try it at a regional.
  #39  
Old May 21st 18, 06:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Default Reducing collision hazard at contests

On Sunday, 20 May 2018 02:47:53 UTC+3, Steve Koerner wrote:
Thanks for the many considered responses here that came from competition pilots. It is good to know that the US proposal to FAI was accepted. After reading the material that Ron Gleason linked, it’s pretty obvious that the US improved scoring method will reduce the gaggle incentive that is so evident at the WGC level.


IGC gave another year for US proposal because US delegates wanted to iron out problems with devaluation scheme. It was not accepted, that will take another 2 years minimum.

After discussing proposal with WGC pilots we concluded that new formula will change nothing and incentive to fly solo is just not there.
  #40  
Old May 21st 18, 06:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Henning Pedersen
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Default Reducing collision hazard at contests

It is called a flarm. We have it all The Club planes and most of The private planes. (Øsf. Denmark)
 




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