GLIDING INTERNATIONAL -- RESEARCH

In the UK "Freedom of expression" is guaranteed under the European
Convention on Human rights. The only real restriction is that it's illegal
to incite hate crimes.

You've got more Airspace, cos you've got more area away from airports

Interesting that the *first* on your list was guns.

I'll bow out now before this gets messy

PF

At 11:59 12 November 2019, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 12, 2019 at 4:15:05 AM UTC-5, Peter F wrote:
OK, I know I shouldn't but I'll bite anyway..

What freedom do you think you have in the US that we in Western Europe
don't?
Guns, speech, moreso than Europe, though they are coming hard for both
here. More airspace freedom. Probably more land use freedom in general,
big country lots of variable rules. We're still freer than Western
Europe
but we are catching up quick.

Le lundi 11 novembre 2019 18:39:21 UTC+1, Mike N. a écritÂ*:

In the U.S.A. flying gliders or powered aircraft is open to a broader population than other countries where recreational flying is typically only obtainable by the wealthy.


Maybe you should visit Europe once to see what it means to have soaring open to a broader population AND to provide decent club gliders.

Been there, done that. And it depends on what your definition of “ decent� club gliders is. In a club setting my definition is ships which are inexpensive to fly and operate.
Due to the ridiculously high cost of personal aircraft ownership in EU, the club scene is essential for folks of modest means to get to fly. Thankfully here in the states, we are not forced into that situation. Any tom-dick-harry can, for modest means, own and operate his own ship! Can’t say that about EU. Have fun with your “decent� club ships over there, I’d rather own and fly my own ship, even if its of lower performance here, wherever and whenever I choose.

I am a member of a small UK club, I use to own an IS29 D2
outright but stopped flying in early 2000, came back to soaring in
2015 and have a half share in a nice Standard Cirrus. Most club
members own or have a share in gliders of similar or better
performance ranging from Jet powered Shark, ASH 25, DG 400 M
DG 600 M Slingsby Skylark 4 Dart 17 a number of Ventus 1 and 2.
Nimbus and mini Nimbus. Club fleet is Puchacz , Grob Twin Acro 2
and Grob 102 Astir , we own a Robin DR400 for Areotows.

Launch fees are

Aerotow to 2000' £24.00
Aerotow - each additional 200' above 2000' £1.50
Aerotow to 1000' - only available for dual training £14.00
Aerotow to 1500' - only available for dual training £20.00
Winch launch Fee - all launches before 11:00 hrs £4
Winch launch Fee - after 11:00 hrs - non-soaring flights £6
Winch launch Fee - after 11:00 hrs - soaring flights £8
Self launch fee- including members' powered aircraft £3

Rental for club aircraft

Annual members - 2 seaters,
per minute for first hour £0.35 (£21 for first hour)
Annual members - 2 seaters,
per minute after first hour £0.25 (£15 per subsequent hour)
Annual members - 2 seaters,
after 3 hours. Free (approved flights)
Annual members - Astir single seater, 30p per minute first hour, 20p
per minute second hour. Free after second hour (consistent with the
needs of other members)

I think those costs mean it is financially accessible to the majority.

I was a Registered nurse with a family and in the UK we are not paid
as well as in the USA however it has always been affordable for me.

I would be interested to hear how that compares with USA


Been there, done that. And it depends on what your definition of
decent club gliders is. In a club setting my definition is ships which
are inexpensive to fly and operate.

Due to the ridiculously high cost of personal aircraft ownership in
EU,
the club scene is essential for folks of modest means to get to fly.

Thankfully here in the states, we are not forced into that situation.
Any
tom-dick-harry can, for modest means, own and operate his own
ship! Cant say that about EU. Have fun with your decent club ships
overthere, Id rather own and fly my own ship, even if its of lower
performance here, wherever and whenever I choose.

Le mardi 12 novembre 2019 17:51:07 UTC+1, a écritÂ*:
Been there, done that. And it depends on what your definition of “ decent� club gliders is. In a club setting my definition is ships which are inexpensive to fly and operate.
Due to the ridiculously high cost of personal aircraft ownership in EU, the club scene is essential for folks of modest means to get to fly. Thankfully here in the states, we are not forced into that situation. Any tom-dick-harry can, for modest means, own and operate his own ship! Can’t say that about EU. Have fun with your “decent� club ships over there, I’d rather own and fly my own ship, even if its of lower performance here, wherever and whenever I choose.

In Europe, you can get a single seater Astir or a Standard Cirrus for less than 10k€, and ownership will cost you a couple of hundred bucks per year. If you don't have that budget, some wooden ships like Ka6 etc go for 2.5k to 5k (and there are plenty available). If that's incredibly expensive for you...

I fly a Ventus cM, and I prefer to have my personal glider for various reasons, but cost and performance are not part of them. In my club, for far less money than my Ventus costs me, I can chose between 2 LS4, 2 DuoDiscus and 2 LS18-18 and fly almost as much as I want... Ok, I live in Switzerland, and club flying being affordable is relative.
So yes, the club scene is mainly for people who can't or don't want to invest into their own glider. And that makes that we have a very strong gliding community, with clubs about everywhere. We had a new club member changing over from a neighbouring club (50 km away) because he had moved and didn't want to drive more than 30 km to the airfield.

wrote on 11/12/2019 8:51 AM:
Been there, done that. And it depends on what your definition of “ decent� club
gliders is. In a club setting my definition is ships which are inexpensive to
fly and operate. Due to the ridiculously high cost of personal aircraft
ownership in EU, the club scene is essential for folks of modest means to get
to fly. Thankfully here in the states, we are not forced into that situation.
Any tom-dick-harry can, for modest means, own and operate his own ship! Can’t
say that about EU. Have fun with your “decent� club ships over there, I’d
rather own and fly my own ship, even if its of lower performance here, wherever
and whenever I choose.

Unfortunately, that does not make it as appealing to nearly as many US
tom-dick-harry as the European club system makes it their tom-dick-harry. The
situation in Germany, for example, is much different than here. Germany alone has
more glider pilots than we do, and it has a quarter the population. I think the
Germans, and Europeans in general, have more choices about when and where to fly
than US pilots, because there are so many clubs within driving range. They can buy
gliders cheaply, too, if ownership is really desired, and it's lots easier to get
a launch.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Its true, there are many more numerous opportunities to soar in EU, and I am in no way denigrating the soaring there. The scene in north america is just very different. We have never been blessed with soaring integral to our culture like germany has had. Soaring is just one of many aspects of aviation available to us. It has been private powered flight and the freedom of the home building movement and the aviation entrepenurial spirit that we are blessed with. We can fly dang near anywhere we want, anytime we want. We can build and fly and modify dang near anything we can think up. That freedom exists nowhere else in the world. In addition, we have every type of soaring a guy would want to engage in be it monster wave, increadable ridges and convective conditions second to none except africa and australia. Except here, you don’t need multiple permits from different countries to move and fly in different conditions. IMOP there is no free’r place in the world to fly gliders.

On Tuesday, November 12, 2019 at 3:59:37 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 12, 2019 at 4:15:05 AM UTC-5, Peter F wrote:
OK, I know I shouldn't but I'll bite anyway..

What freedom do you think you have in the US that we in Western Europe
don't?
Guns, speech, moreso than Europe, though they are coming hard for both here. More airspace freedom. Probably more land use freedom in general, big country lots of variable rules. We're still freer than Western Europe but we are catching up quick.

November 7th was one year since I lost my former neighbor and outstanding community member to a mass shooter. https://www.foxla.com/video/622936?f...xB_X2bmiujVzFk

Justin was a teenager when we were neighbors. I in my late fifties Justin was in his High School years. While a child in age this young man was the type of community member you would want in your neighborhood. He would chat me up about my thrice weekly open water swims with my dog. He would help carry furniture to my second floor. He carried groceries into the house while I was recovery from knee surgery. He told me his plans for college and beyond. Hs Father a Career Navy SEAL officer. I cannot tell you enough how much of an asset Justin was to any community he would have been in. Justin died to the hot lead of one of you precious ****ing guns, while breaking windows to help other escape. In his final moment he was still helping the community.

At 17:39 11 November 2019, Mike N. wrote:
"North Americans have to do everything the hard way........."

Really? I'm not sure what part of Europe or South America you
might be
from, but this type of comment is so simplistic it becomes
irrelevant and
laughable.

In the U.S.A. flying gliders or powered aircraft is open to a broader
population than other countries where recreational flying is
typically only
obtainable by the wealthy.

Being able to enjoy the wonders of flight, without having to be
wealthy as
in other countries, is a fantastic opportunity in the U.S.A. not
available
in many other parts of the world. I appreciate that aspect of
american
life.

That does mean however that those of us who fly on a budget may
not be in a
club that owns an expensive motor glider. We have a mixture of
clubs in the
U.S., some with more resources than others.

The previous post that suggested taking a powered flight and
training in
off airport landings makes the most sense in the U.S. market in my
opinion.

Even if you are not a power pilot, spending a few hours with a
power
instructor just practicing off airport landing procedures will benefit
glider pilots.

That training is all about the fundamentals of off airport landings
(land
outs). Determining wind direction, picking a suitable field, slope,
setting up a pattern, etc. Then actually simulating an approach to
land.

$.02 paid in full. YMMV.


Maybe Africa or Asia eh? they soar there too. Just an opinion from
many years of observation...when it comes to soaring.
Your statement that flying gliders is open to a broader population
than other countries where recreational flying is typically only
obtainable by the wealthy is just pure B/S. There are many more
clubs in Europe that allow cheap glider flying in decent equipment.
Have you ever actually visited a European gliding club?
Look at the active youth scene in Europe compared with the USA for
example, look at some of the club gliders that most Europeans can
fly at reasonable cost, off a cheap winch launches - then compare it
with the POS Schweizers most clubs use in the USA. Power flying is
another matter granted- its cheaper in the USA, but then that's not
gliding - but a Scheibe motorglider is hardly what I'd call an
expensive aircraft and cheap to run. Derek Piggott did try to convert
you all many years ago.

Sounds like Justin was quite a guy and his loss was tragic.

But, Jonathan why do you blame the gun rather than the shooter?Â* Do you
blame cars for traffic deaths?Â* Unattended camp fires for wild fires?Â*
What makes guns the target when every other tragedy is rightfully blamed
on the person who caused it?

BTW, none of my guns have ever injured anybody and they never will,
unless that body is threatening me or my loved ones.

On 11/12/2019 4:20 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Tuesday, November 12, 2019 at 3:59:37 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 12, 2019 at 4:15:05 AM UTC-5, Peter F wrote:
OK, I know I shouldn't but I'll bite anyway..

What freedom do you think you have in the US that we in Western Europe
don't?
Guns, speech, moreso than Europe, though they are coming hard for both here. More airspace freedom. Probably more land use freedom in general, big country lots of variable rules. We're still freer than Western Europe but we are catching up quick.
November 7th was one year since I lost my former neighbor and outstanding community member to a mass shooter. https://www.foxla.com/video/622936?f...xB_X2bmiujVzFk

Justin was a teenager when we were neighbors. I in my late fifties Justin was in his High School years. While a child in age this young man was the type of community member you would want in your neighborhood. He would chat me up about my thrice weekly open water swims with my dog. He would help carry furniture to my second floor. He carried groceries into the house while I was recovery from knee surgery. He told me his plans for college and beyond. Hs Father a Career Navy SEAL officer. I cannot tell you enough how much of an asset Justin was to any community he would have been in. Justin died to the hot lead of one of you precious ****ing guns, while breaking windows to help other escape. In his final moment he was still helping the community.

--
Dan, 5J