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General Zinni on Sixty Minutes



 
 
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Old June 9th 04, 07:46 PM
Paul J. Adam
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Posts: n/a
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In message , Kevin Brooks
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
Why? You're the one who responded to argument with a version of "it was
a joke, son, a joke" a few posts back.


And you were the one who said that humor was inappropriate in this
thread--right up until you wanted to use it yourself. Typical.


No, I didn't - I thought misquotation was a Bad Thing?

I *did* say I didn't find it amusing, but show me where I tried to deny
you permission.

Not particularly. You suggested a properly calibrated humour switch was
a necessary tool, now you're flying off the handle because it seems your
calibration is badly off.


Only because you told us it was not allowed in this thread.


Where? Are you merely confused, or just mendacious?

Sorry, we were talking about UNSCR687, not Congressional resolutions.
Unless you accept that Iraqi government resolutions that Kuwait was
actually the 19th Province and should be reunified immediately were also
binding?


Sorry that you can't grasp that our congress decided to actually act in this
case,


So, UN resolutions are irrelevant? Why are you discussing them, in that
case?

No mention of *industrial* production, meaning they had at best reached
prototype testing - and certainly not excluding prototype testing.


Actually, no mention of *any* production. Please point to where any
"non-industrial" production was mentioned in regards to these kind of
weapons?


So these shells were never produced?

No - just no evidence of a production line for the results of the
suspected research.


Again, please point to where the UN inspectors point to *any* binary rounds
being produced as part of this program. No?


Find evidence of *any* binary rounds being produced in Iraq.

As I said--the UN never mentions
any evidence of *any* rounds being fabricated,


Despite an apparent research program.

nor did the Iraqis
acknowledge producing any such rounds, be they R&D products or not. Which is
what I have been saying all along--so your point would be...?


That this was a prototype (not production), or even an import. Certainly
no evidence that Iraq produced it, according to you.

The first Archerfish prototype was built in a garage in personal time.
Now it's part of the US AMNS program. Doesn't mean the first few
hand-built prototypes never existed, or that Redfish didn't get lost
while surveying Brent Spar.


We are not talking about Archerfish--we are talking about Iraqi binary
rounds which you indicated the UN report addressed--but in fact the UN
reports did not ever mention any such rounds being in existance, and was
only aware that some form of R&D had occured.


How much R&D? Enough for a few prototypes, for example? (Pretty basic
R&D if they didn't even get to basic prototype testing...)

To repeat,
"These also include Iraq's efforts to develop new delivery means for
CW-agents, such as special warheads other than for Al-Hussein missiles,
i.e. FROG missile, and real binary artillery munitions and aerial bombs.
Evidence of such studies was found in the documents from the Haider
farm."


Wow. How many rounds are produced by the usual "study"?


Between five and fifty, in my direct experience - those were guided
weapons, though, so artillery shells would likely be rather higher. Can
be a hundred or more for an experimental round (thinking of the L15
shell as the one I heard about, and that was just an improved HE round)

Why bother with
"industrial production" when you can apparently convene a few folks around a
table, produce a report or two regarding design requirments and feasibility,
and ...presto, rounds magically appear?


How many rounds, taking how long? (Remember you fire these by the pallet
load in action - prototypes are fine for development but you then freeze
the design and set up a line for mass production)

The fact is that the UN never
mentioned the physical existance, or suspected existance, of *any* binary
rounds--as I told you before.


And they also were explicit that there was no Iraqi production facility
for binary sarin shells found (confirmed by subsequent events).

So I guess that proves the shell can't be Iraqi, if your logic is
correct.

So, evidence of studies but not of production lines. And in over a year
of searching based first on intelligence, then on prisoner
interrogation, there's no sign of any production line that could have
produced such a shell.



One option is that this was a pre-91 prototype round. Another is that it
was imported, from Syria or Iran as examples. Evidence that it's part of
a domestic production program is the thinnest of all - yet that's the
mast you've chosen to nail your colours to.


You see Iran as a potential supplier of chemical munitions to Saddam?!


Absolutely not - the concept's ludicrous.

But he's been gone over a year, and I can see Iran (or factions within
Iran) supplying Shi'a resistance with weapons.

And where is your evidence that
Syria was a possible source?


Same place as your evidence that the round came from an Iraqi mass
production line

Paulian conjecture? OTOH, we do have the UN
acknowledging that the Iraqis were working on binary development, and geee,
what do you kniow, a binary round turns up in Iraq. Occam's razor says it
was probably of Iraqi manufacture.


Isn't that what I keep saying? If they had a development program, they'd
have had a few hand-built rounds to test the concept... except,
according to you, they must have managed to go directly from paper
concept to frozen design without a single prototype, and then made the
production line and everyone who knew about it disappear into thin air
before the US arrived.

The UN found hard evidence of neither R&D rounds nor mass production,
but you cannot get to mass production without the development & proving
trials, for which you need R&D rounds. I think you need to look again at
Occam's razor and try wielding it properly.

Nice evasion. So why not invade Iraq properly in autumn 1991, when
they're thoroughly in violation?


Because we were willing to give them a chance to meet the terms of the
ceasefire from our then-recent little dance in the desert. And we continued
to give them opportunities to meet those requirements for the next twelve
years. Many of us find that a more than reasonable time period during which
Saddam could have chosen to fully comply with the requirements. But he did
not do so, and was as you acknowledge in violation on some number of
issues--too bad for him.


So, go to the UN and get a resolution authorising action and imploring
all member nations to lend assistance.

Or is the UN only relevant when it suits you? If it's not relevant, then
neither is 687. If it *is* relevant, then you need authorisation or
self-defence to invade another member country.

There was supposed to be a major, imminent threat. There wasn't,


Not according to our case.


Your case turned out to be badly in error.

You mean, "avoid all the issues you find too hard to deal with?"


No, they have been dealt with--you just typically try to continually
reorient to this "immediate or imminent threat" from WMD that was, in fact,
not a requirement for our action per the case set forth by our leaders on
this side of the pond. Sorry, but that is just not an accurate portrayal of
what was required to justify action, as the White House report I pointed you
at made clear.


"Baghdad has begun renewed production of chemical warfare agents,
probably including mustard, sarin, cyclosarin, and VX. Its capability
was reduced during the UNSCOM inspections and is probably more limited
now than it was at the time of the Gulf war, although VX production and
agent storage life probably have been improved.


Saddam probably has stocked a few hundred metric tons of CW agents."
http://www.odci.gov/cia/reports/iraq...q_Oct_2002.htm

Let's remember that we British apparently used chemical weapons on the
Iraqis during the 1920s. Out of interest, would digging up a
1920s-vintage shell filled with mustard gas count as "a violation" and
be the complete, absolute justification you seem to consider it?


No.


So is it one shell, two shells or three shells that become the
violation?

I am not, and have said so to you repeatedly. Since you're fond of
invective, let me now call *you* a liar for repeatedly making false
claims despite contradiction.


Have you not continually stated that if we went into Iraq under the
justifications we have set forth, that we also should *have* to similarly
and simultaneously address every other WMD-holding state with similar,
either overt/government approved or covert/non-government sanctioned ties to
terrorism, etc., in the same manner as we have Iraq?


No. Your fantasy, not mine, falsely attributed to me.

I expressed concern that Iraq presented a much lower threat than several
other nations, and represented a significant diversion of resources
since even the US can only undertake one such operation at a time.

That bears no resemblance to the nonsense you claim I espouse. In
particular, point to when I demanded *simultaneous* action - that
addition is your invention, not mine. (The US doesn't have the available
resources to deal with Sudan at the moment, let alone Iran or Syria...)


Where have *I* ever mentioned a "standard playbook for international
affairs"? (Your words, this post) That is your own invention which you
have falsely, repeatedly, attributed to me. You are a liar.


The "standard playbook" is my accurate paraphrase


"I accurately paraphrase, you're a filthy liar". Yes, extremely
consistent.

I ask why greater apparent threats are considered less urgent (and why
the US is so extending itself with Iraq as to preclude any significant
action against those threats), and you claim I espouse a rigidly
standardised approach that must be undertaken in parallel?

Hardly an "accurate paraphrase", in fact I'd call it a deliberate
distortion.

Go through your list of quotes. When do I say that the US *must* invade
anyone else? I ask when other threats will get the same treatment: I do
not demand parallel operations.


But I suppose only you get to define what "accurate paraphrase" is.

Where have I ever stated that only "great numbers of rounds in massive
stockpiles" or "only massive amounts", (both you, this thread, June 05)
would be convincing? Again, your invention, falsely quoted as being my
words. You are a liar.


"A huge lethal pile of WME may still emerge, but the odds continue to
worsen." 12 Sep 03


Nothing about how much would be *necessary*.

"One elderly shell isn't a threat. That's a fact we can both agree
on. You measure chemical weapons in terms of tons of agent." (In this very
thread)


And completely true - read your Joint Warfare Publications, or whatever
the US equivalent is.

So, it appears that you do indeed require "massive amounts" if you are only
willing to consider "tons of agent".


I'd accept "Militarily significant". "Massive amounts" is simply
dishonest: you're presenting it as a direct quotation of my words, when
in fact it's your distortion.

But again, when you do this it's just "accurate paraphrasing".

Of course, you have also said recently,
"1998 and earlier, I'm willing to accept a few (call it three, offhand)
"WME stockpiles" that are - for a rule of thumb - a pallet or less of
shells, 122mm rockets, or precursors each. 1991 or earlier, I'd raise
the bar quite a lot higher, because they prepared to fight a defensive
war and then lost it massively and that's where large amounts of kit go
missing. (We're still occasionally digging up buried caches of 1940s No.
76 grenades here in the UK, which is a problem because they're beer
bottles filled with a benzene, rubber and white phosphorous mixture -
not nice to accidentally put a spade through one) Post-1998, "a pallet"
of filled basic munitions or of filler for them,
or a single weapon that was a significant advance on their previous
capability, would be conclusive proof. Less than that would be a very
unwelcome surprise, though not decisive (we know they *wanted* to keep
their programs going, but the claim was that the programs existed and
were an immediate threat)" 18 May 04

Which leaves one a bit perplexed as to what exactly you do require-


I thought the above was perfectly clear.

-it
ranges from the acceptance of one round of a type they were not known to
have (which you apparently no longer accept, being as this binary round no
longer makes your cut-off score),


They were known to be working on it, remember? Weaponised VX, or an
effective BW agent with workable dispersal means, would be appropriate.
Going from "binary lite" to "true binary" with sarin would not.

to multiple pallets of rounds, to the
claim that you have to have "tons of agent" in order to be measurable.


Basically, we're looking for evidence that there was an Iraqi threat.
The older the munitions are, the more production they had back then. One
estimate is that Iraq produced something over 200,000 chemical
munitions, of which maybe half were expended during the war with Iraq
(try proving *that* claim solidly).

From 1991 onwards his NBCR facilities were under inspection and
occasional attack, and "it was lost in 1987" or "it was overrun in 1991"
becomes infeasable.

Shall I continue? I find your protestations of wounded honour extremely
amusing, since you so freely indulge in the conduct you claim to
deprecate.


Mine are pretty accurate--your's have been deplorably inaccurate, and proven
as such.


Your definition of "accurate" here is as incorrect as when you use it to
describe your paraphrasing.

Well, it seems the director of your Central Intelligence Agency at least
felt he was wrong.


Uhmmm...again, where in the White House's case against Iraq did you find
thaose descriptive terms? Eh?


Quoted the CIA's white paper at you.

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt
that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most
lethal weapons ever devised." President G W Bush, March 17 2003

"The Iraqi regime has violated all of those obligations. It possesses
and produces chemical and biological weapons...

Some ask how urgent this danger is to America and the world. The danger
is already significant, and it only grows worse with time. If we know
Saddam Hussein has dangerous weapons today -- and we do...

Iraq could decide on any given day to provide a biological or chemical
weapon to a terrorist group or individual terrorists...

Saddam Hussein still has chemical and biological weapons and is
increasing his capabilities to make more. And he is moving ever closer
to developing a nuclear weapon...." President G W Bush, October 17, 2002

Shame about the lack of production lines, isn't it?

"Lambasted"? When?


"I'm not really seeing anything funny - I've got family currently being shot
at because of this."


Lambast, verb. Beat with a cane [syn: cane, flog, lambaste] 2: censure
severely or angrily; "The mother scolded the child for entering the
stranger's car"; "The deputy ragged the Prime Minister"; "The customer
dressed down the waiter for bringing cold soup";

I told you your joke wasn't funny to me, and you call it "severe or
angry censure"? Either you're ignorant, lying or mentally unstable.

Then why did you say it if you're not certain?

Oh, I forgot - humour and sarcasm. Which are admirable rhetorical tools
in your hands, but deceitful lies when used against you. Just as
paraphrasing your debator's words is a perfectly acceptable tactic for
you, but a filthy deception when practiced against you.


No, you keep forgetting that it was you who took the "nothing humorous about
this subject" bent.


I thought you claimed I forbade you from using humour?

(Or are you finally withdrawing that false claim?)

Once you are proven to be a liar, none of
your words have much weight


Let me know if you ever find any proof, then.

No. Why do you suddenly find them credible, and why have you so
conspicuously failed to defend them?


What? I find Kay to be quite credible. So if you are not calling him a liar,
then you must accept his testimony that violations, to include that ricin
program, were indeed found.


+++++
Weapons of mass destruction do not exist in Iraq and it is "delusional"
to think they will be found, says former chief US weapons inspector
David Kay.

Mr Kay told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that British and American
leaders should simply apologise and admit that they were wrong....

"There were clearly illegal activities, clear violations of UN Security
Council resolutions. We have accumulated that evidence and really have
accumulated that evidence to a considerable degree four months ago.

"There are not actual stockpiles of newly produced weapons of mass
destruction."
+++++
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3778987.stm

Still find him credible?

You mean, like "massive quantities"? Go on, find me a post where I said
that - yet you attributed it to me. Or is it not lying when *you* do it?


See above--your own words always tend to let you down, don't they Paul?


So, you've proved I *never* said "massive quantities" and your claiming
I did, is a lie. (You paraphrased it and passed it off as a direct
quotation, while claiming that doing so is a lie)

It's curious that those who are most generous in flinging the charge of
"liar" are those who themselves are quite reckless with the truth.


Prove it, as I have in your case.


Done, repeatedly.

No, you rattled off a laundry-list of reasons. Were they in order? What
was the relative importance? *That* was what you were asked for and you
have *still* failed to provide.


You asked for the reasons--you got them...again, and again.


I asked for the reasons and their relative importance. You provided
"some" of the reasons and refused to prioritise them. Again, and again,
and again.

I'm being generous because you repeated the laundry list and still left
out the order and prioritisation I asked for.


Oh, so sorry!


Thank you.

Why should I have bothered to prioritize them, when you
refused to even acknowledge they were given to you?


Because a partial list without the prioritisation is meaningless.

Is there is
prioritization system required? No, not that I am aware of.


It was asked for, you repeatedly refuse to provide it, and now you claim
you fully and completely answered the question.

Curious definition of honesty you use over there, Kevin.

And now you
wiggle and squirm, and try to claim that I never gave them to you in the
precise format that you (only later, after they were originally given to
you) requested.


I don't need to *claim* you refused, you proudly boast of doing so.

Now, remember you've left out any priority and importance. Are these the
top slice of the list? The least important reasons that are safe for
public discussion? A random selection?


You asked "Out of interest, what *were* the reasons? Let us avoid future
misunderstandings." To which I gave you an answer. You then went on to ask
for them in a "rough order of importance", which I did not do, seeing as
there is no standard or approved "order of importance" for such things.


I see - so, in other words even you admit you never answered the
question, providing a partial evasion which you then hid behind
repeatedly.


How bizarre. What, exactly, is the "lie" here?


You should be able to find your's quite easily, as they are getting to be so
darned common. And you left out the quote of your own words: ""It's not
about the WMD". I
can only go by what you say, Kevin...Your claiming they were irrelevant was
something of a hint." (Both are direct quotes from your comments last month)
Gee, that does not sound like much of an apology to me--more like a
continued effort to falsely claim that I had made that very statement.


From: Paul J. Adam )
Subject: Sarin in a 155 artillery round
Newsgroups: sci.military.naval
Date: 2004-05-19 13:51:14 PST

"That was a paraphrase, not a quote: I put the name and date on the
quote so it could be traced.

My apologies if the distinction wasn't clear enough."

Now, is that not an apology?

Meanwhile, you repeatedly and blatantly conduct exactly the same false
attribution, invent bizarre positions such as "defending Hussein" and
claim they're mine.


You have defended Hussein--not all of the time, but enough.


When, precisely?

That whole bit
about Saddam not knowing about his WMD programs,


Actually, having a grossly exaggerated idea of them.


+++++
From: Paul J. Adam )
Subject: Truman: the buck stops here
Newsgroups: sci.military.naval
Date: 2003-07-15 14:46:54 PST

"I'm personally inclined to believe that Saddam's stated chemical and
biological weapon production was close kin to Soviet-era food harvests:
every Five-Year Plan reports record yields of grain, milk and meat,
while mysteriously food rations are cut (again) - only because
Western-inspired 'revisionists', 'capitalists' and 'hooligans' are
sabotaging the distribution of these bumper crops."
+++++

and presumably him being
therefore innocent of these violations,


I don't follow you here. Saddam wrongly believed he had potent
stockpiles of WME and this renders him *innocent*?

How does this constitute "defending him"?

is a defense of Saddam. Come on, you
have wasted enough electrons in that sort of tapdance--you should at least
be able to admit that is a defense of Saddam.


No, I'm afraid you're either mendacious or confused again.


Depends what you mean - he disappeared in clouds of bluster and
killfiled me every time I proved he was talking out of his arse.

*He* started calling me a liar when I pointed out you could use
precision-guided weapons for close air support and he insisted that had
never happened, didn't happen now and could never be considered.
Apparently all those LGBs, JDAMs and Mavericks reported expended in CAS
missions were just fictions of the pilots' overheated imaginations.


Well, in my case your own words have repeatedly shown you to be a liar.


That's what he said as well. Oh, and he's fond of the tactical
paraphrase too.

Sounds like a bit of a different situation to me.


No, I think it's remarkably similar. Can't argue the issues? Call your
opponent a liar. Don't get anywhere with that? Resort to invective.

Where did I ever claim there was a "standard playbook for international
affairs"? You repeatedly use that phrase, in quotation marks, as if it
was my own words. Where did I mention the existence of such? Or did you
invent it and then falsely attribute it to me?


As I said above, and backed up with repeated direct quotes from your
numerous posts on the subject, that is an accurate paraphrase--


You presented it in a manner which you claimed made it a quotation. It
is not a quotation, it's a paraphrase, and not even an accurate one.

So, you're passing off your words as mine with intent to deceive? Your
rules, not mine - but they make you a liar.

And a much more determined one, since I *immediately* made clear that
the disputed words were not a direct quotation and apologised for the
error: while you continue to insist that peddling a distortion of my
words as if they were my own, is a fair and decent thing to do.



"NK and Iran
are much nearer WME than Iraq, and Syria is widely alleged to have chemical
warheads on over a hundred Scud copies. Sounds like a threat to me - when do
we go in? If it was good enough for Iraq, it's good enough for them."


If Iraq is such a threat, why is

Your
words. I am guessing you are beginning to hate the long-term emeory quality
of Google about now; it must truly suck having to face your own words that
bear out the accuracy of how I characterized your argument in this regard,
huh?


Indeed: it's very useful to compare your quotes - sorry, when *you* do
it they're just paraphrases - with what I actually wrote and to see how
vague your definition of "accurate paraphrase" is.

Now, if you weren't so in arms about this being a gross and malicious
falsehood when done to *you*, this wouldn't be an issue: your enthusiasm
for distorting positions is obvious and hardly new. It's your
self-righteous hypocrisy that it's perfectly acceptable for *you*, but
malicious falsehood from anyone else, that's so curious.

Where have I ever stated that only "great numbers of rounds in massive
stockpiles" or "only massive amounts", (both you, this thread, June 05)
would be convincing? Again, your invention, falsely placed in quotation
marks as though they were my own words. Where did I make those
statements? Citations, please.


Already provided above.


No, you posted how I described quantities. You then falsely quoted me as
requiring "great numbers of rounds in massive quantities", words you
yourself have proved I never used.

Oh, I forgot - when *you* change people's words it's just an "accurate
paraphrase".

Which I immediately made clear was a paraphrase and apologised for - a
point you ignored, while indulging in the exact same conduct yourself.


No, go back and read the record--you did not immediately apologize.



Google shows you raised your protest at 18:38:40 PST on May 18, and I
apologised at 13:51:14 PST on May 19.

How much more "immediately" do you want on Usenet?

I
corrected you, rather politely, and you persisted in inaccurately portraying
my argument,


I'm sorry, it's now that I "inaccurately portrayed your argument"? This
from the person who claims that Hussein's ignorance of his WME programs
is "protecting him"? Who routinely and regularly distorts - sorry,
"accurately paraphrases" - positions he disagrees with and then presents
them as if they were his opponent's own words?


I accept that I paraphrased your words, and that I made it
insufficiently clear that it was a paraphrase rather than a quotation.

going as far as presenting my actual quote that you claimed
proved your point. I *then* labled you a liar, and I pointed out that you
had ignored the "all" and its import to the meaning; only then did you
weakly apologize, but even that apology was less than full


S it's now not that I'm a liar, but that you didn't like the apology?

("That was a
paraphrase, not a quote: I put the name and date on the quote so it could be
traced. My apologies if the distinction wasn't clear enough.").


As if your
paraphrase was still accurate (and you know it was not--you do know that a
paraphrase can be either accurate or inaccurate, don't you?).


I'm using your standards of accuracy - are they incorrect?

Then you had
the unmitigated gall to come back in this thread and claim you *never*
attributed that paraphrase directly to me--


No, I didn't. Where did I claim you said it? Remember, if it's a quote
then it's traceable.

Cripes,
at this point you have lied so much, and so repetitively, that they are now
piling up on each other.


Or maybe you're just flailing.

And where did UNSCR687 say "the suspicion (not proof) of a breach shall
justify immediate invasion"? Again, you need to actually *read* what you
cite.


Meaningless. The US chose to enforce 687, which was also, if you have
forgotten, the codification of the ceasefire terms for ODS.


To do so required a further resolution authorising armed force, in the
same way that 660 was followed by 687 as the enabling action for
military force.

That's UN rules, anyway: either go with the UN or not, but don't pick
and mix.

Of course, "it's not all about WMDs", it's a completely flexible list -
so much so that you proudly boast of being unable to work out what order
the reasons might fall in. But then, Hussein wasn't the top threat on
any permutation of your list.


The White House did not prioritize them, either. I have yet to see any
prioritized declaration of war in any other historical conflict; is this
something new you are proposing for Paulian World? 'Cause it sure does not
seem to apply here on earth, nor has it ever applied.


Generally there's no need, because there's a simple clear reason. "Get
Germany out of Poland", "Get North Korea out of South Korea", "push the
Germans back out of France and liberate Belgium".

Still, the idea that you should deal with the most dangerous threats is
obviously foreign foolishness rooted in the notion that there's a
"handbook" containing basic wisdom like "biggest risk, biggest
response".


I believe your words we "NK and Iran are much nearer WME than Iraq, and
Syria is widely alleged to have chemical warheads on over a hundred Scud
copies. Sounds like a threat to me - when do we go in? If it was good enough
for Iraq, it's good enough for them." Looks like you are grouping all
threats into one big pile and advocating equal treatment for all.


No, just comparing threats and wondering why Iraq seemed so urgent when
greater dangers lay elsewhere.

The idea of "one big pile" and "equal treatment for all" is your own
fantasy, nothing I've ever advocated or stated: you continue to falsely
attribute it to me, conduct you clearly state is an unacceptable
falsehood.

Or were
you lying when you made that statement?


No, I was asking a question (The question marks indicate that it's a
"question" not a "statement".) The 'Good enough' followup is rhetorical
rather than analytical.

Did he ever have the means to support one?


Yeah--those binary components of sarin included in that one round,


Well, that's going to really slaughter thousands.

a ricin
program,


Which a competent student could replicate in a domestic kitchen.

and worse, a demonstrated willingness to both use WMD's (setting
him apart from all other current national leaders)


Sure, but only because it was the President of Syria's father who used
HCN at Hama in 1982. I'm sure the son is a much nicer man.

and to directly attack US
citizens (of which group that former US President and his entourage are
members).


Oh, tragic. So you've captured his stockpile of WMEs and attacks on US
citizens have stopped?

If those really were reasons, they've both failed to succeed...

Send a recce aircraft to photograph Syria's WMD factories and missile
bases and see what happens.


If you have not noticed, Syria is not subject to NFZ restrictions.


Can the US fly aircraft freely through Syrian airspace without being at
least intercepted, and if they don't co-operate being engaged?

Then you've failed to read. (Syria is Ba'athist just like Iraq was and
has similar policies about internal dissent)


Please point to the evidence that the current governments of either nation
are responsible for mass executions.


Quote of a quote, since Amnesty's web site is down.

+++++
“Some monitors stated: old streets of the city were bombed from the
air to facilitate the introduction of military forces and tanks through
the narrow streets, like the al-Hader street, where homes were crushed
by tanks during the first four days of fighting. On February 15th,
after days of intense bombardment, Defence Minister General Mustafa
Tlass announced that the rebellion was put out, but the city remained
under siege and surrounded. Door-to-door searches along with extensive
arrests continued during the next two following weeks, while various
news leaks talked about atrocities committed by the security forces and
mass killings of innocent city residents. It is not easy to know what
did exactly occur, but Amnesty International mentioned news of a mass
execution of some 70 people outside the city hospital on February 19th
and the annihilation of all residents of the al-Hader area on the hands
of the Defense Brigades (Saraya el-Defaa) on the same day. Other reports
talk of using containers of cyanide gas to kill all inhabitants of
buildings, where rebels were suspected of residing. Also, people were
grouped in the military airport, city stadium, and military camps and
were left there without shelter or food for days.”

The mass murders and mass executions over-step the laws and constitute a
grave violation of the right to live, which is the same sacred right
mentioned in the universal declaration of human rights and the
International treaty regarding human and civil rights (Article 16):
every human has the natural right to live, which is protected by this
law and it is not allowed to take this right from any individual
oppressively. This was an excerpt of a report sent by Amnesty
International addressing Syrian President Hafiz Assad in 1983.
+++++
http://www.shrc.org.uk/data/aspx/d0/1260.aspx

"Other things to see in Hama include the Grand Mosque, which was
destroyed during a 1982 uprising. The uprising was started by the Muslim
Brotherhood and quashed by 8000 troops, supported by air force and tank
assaults. Up to 25,000 people died in the fighting and in following
executions and atrocities. Evidence of the uprising has been hidden by
widespread restoration - the mosque is among the buildings that have had
a facelift."
http://www.lloydstsb.lonelyplanet.co...syria/obt.html



For Iran,

+++++
In July 1981, members of the Union of Communists tried to seize control
of the Caspian town of Amol. At least seventy guerrillas and Pasdaran
members were killed before the uprising was put down. The government
responded to the armed challenge of the guerrilla groups by expanded use
of the Pasdaran in counterintelligence activities and by widespread
arrests, jailings, and executions. The executions were facilitated by a
September 1981, Supreme Judicial Council circular to the revolutionary
courts permitting death sentences for "active members" of guerrilla
groups. Fifty executions a day became routine; there were days when more
than 100 persons were executed. Amnesty International documented 2,946
executions in the 12 months following Bani Sadr's impeachment, a
conservative figure because the authorities did not report all
executions.
+++++
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+ir0034)

Presumably, 3,000 Iranians and 30,000 Syrians will now not count as
sufficiently "mass" for you.

Or they could have killed themselves in the attempt, or just ruined the
shell. (Just because the ingredients of binary sarin aren't nerve
toxins, doesn't make them innocuous or easy to handle)


I am not aware that either isoproponol or DF are extraordinarily hazardous
by themselves.


Wouldn't like to be holding the burster charge if it went off
unexpectedly.

Probably wouldn't be fun if I was taking it apart and ruptured the
containers (bet they don't come out easily...) You'd *probably* only
start a leak in one...

Your invention, not mine. Lying again? Please stick to my own words of
"militarily significant" when you wish to attribute a description of
required quantity to me.


No. You are the one who has repeatedly claimed that "And it was claimed that
he was hiding hundreds of tons of chemicals and entire production lines, and
that was why we had to invade and secure that threat Right Now." The US did
not claim that those were necessary conditions.


They did, however, claim that this was the case. Even your own President
said so.

"It[Iraq] possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons."
President G W Bush, October 7 2002

You also have repeatedly
claimed that a "immediate or imminent threat" is required; again, the US
case did not use that verbage.


"Some ask how urgent this danger is to America and the world. The danger
is already significant, and it only grows worse with time. If we know
Saddam Hussein has dangerous weapons today -- and we do -- does it make
any sense for the world to wait to confront him as he grows even
stronger and develops even more dangerous weapons?...

....regime change in Iraq is the only certain means of removing a great
danger to our nation."
President G W Bush, October 7 2002.

So, you're now calling me a liar only because you didn't like the tone
of my apology? While multiply doing the exact same paraphrase on my
words?


See the earlier details of this "aplogy " of your's (the one where you said,
"That was a paraphrase, not a quote: I put the name and date on the quote so
it could be traced. My apologies if the distinction wasn't clear enough." ).
Odd, nowhere in that statement do you agree the paraphrase was inaccurate.


I'm sorry, I was judging by the standards of accuracy you use when you
"paraphrase" other people's positions.


However, if *that* is what has you so wound up, then I immediately
apologise for the way my paraphrase changed the meaning of your original
quote, as well as for the possibility that it might have been taken as a
direct quotation of your words.

For this I'm called a liar while you repeatedly attribute false
statements to me.


Prove it.


Have done.

So take it to the Security Council.


Nah, we took care of it ourselves.


So the UNSC and its resolutions are irrelevant - so stop mumbling about
them.

So who was convicted, since the evidence was so solid?


Can't recall, though I do believe the Kuwaitis had a couple of people in
jail over that one.


Well, that's thorough, complete and conclusive.

Or is "diehard Saddam apologist" another one of those lies you're so
free with?


Did I thus label you? No. I said, "Proven to the satisfaction of most,
except for diehard Saddam apologists."


It was not proven to my satisfaction, therefore you call me a diehard
Saddam apologist.

However, there's a grey area between "Probably him, but not actually
proven" and "Proven" which you are either ignorant of, or choose to
igno and whose occupants you describe as "diehard Saddam apologists".

If you consider yourself a diehard
Saddam apologist, so be it. I would note that you have demonstrated a
tendency to project the image of someone who thinks the US did Saddam wrong,
based upon your defense of him in regards to his WMD violations.


Your fantasy - shame it doesn't connect to reality.

Why? Three fugitive murderers are proof of hypocrisy regarding "giving
sanctuary to terrorists", but hardly casus belli unless you're really
desperate.


Two or three known terrorists receiving sanctuary from Iraq, along with one
reported terrorist training facility, and behavior such as supporting
suicide bombers does indeed constitute part of the casus belli.


Funny, that... "supporting terrorism" really is a flexible term when you
use it, isn't it?

As would your "standard playbook for international affairs" and "great
numbers of rounds in massive stockpiles" so falsely attributed to me.


No, those have been accurate, based upon your own words, as provided above.


No, they are distortions falsely attributed to me.

You asked where you attributed it--the answer is right there.


You showed how you took my words, twisted them to suit yourself, and
falsely attributed them.

But you won't
admit it, ebven when faced with your own words? Figures. You are a lying
sack of ****.


Is that a reflective screen, Kevin? Looking at yourself, perchance?


Seems you're even more of an egregious liar than me, Kevin, and you've
never made clear that you were paraphrasing rather than quoting nor
apologised for the misattribution.


See where these baseless claims have been addressed earlier in this missive.
Now, again--you asked, "Which post of yours did I attribute it to? Where did
I say that the words in those inverted commas were yours and yours alone?" I
gave you your answer, also in your own words.


And proved conclusively that you're attributing statements to me that I
never made.

Again, you are proven to be a
liar.


Only in your imagination.

Cite please, where I stated that humour was unacceptable in this thread.


See earlier quote of your response to my initial humorous remark.


"I'm not really seeing anything funny - I've got family currently being
shot at because of this."

What part of that can be read as "Humour is unacceptable"? I just
pointed out that it's not a funny joke. (My cousin turned out to be OK,
in case you wondered)

So, where precisely did I state where it could be found?


Paul, 18 May 04: ""It's not about the WMD". I can only go by what you say,
Kevin...Your claiming they were irrelevant was something of a hint" Note the
original quotation marks around the initial statement--they were your's.


Just as you routinely put quotation marks around your own words and
peddle them as mine.

Keep on piling up that evidence of your lying, Paul.


Don't need to, Kevin: you're digging yourself deeper with every post.

Just as you've falsely attributed words to me that I never said, and
evaded questions I repeatedly asked - and exploited my tolerance on your
evasions to pretend a wounded innocence when in fact you are still
fleeing the question.


You have offered no proof; you have not challenged the evidence offered that
demonstrates again and again your own lies.


Offered and demonstrated.

In my
experience, a fellow like you who has to resort to repeatedly lying in

order
to try and cover his own missteps, usually is the sort who lacks the

courage
for such encounters--but you are welcome to prove otherwise.


If you want to put it like that?

Fort Widley courtyard, dawn, Saturday 19 June.

Gauntlet's down.


I said when you are in the area; I have never been to the UK, and don't see
any chance of going.


Oh, how *marvellously* convenient for you.

You, OTOH have indicated that you make periodic visits
to the DC area, right?


No, but I was on holiday there in 2000.

I'll be in New York on the 5th of July, though.

That is close enough for me--I am more than willing
to do a little drivetime if it makes you happy. Seriously. I believe that
makes it "put up or shut up" time to you, does it not?


Certainly does. Shall I see you on the 5th? And will it be swords or
pistols?

I thought I didn't apologise? When did your story change?


I said, "..which you say..." No, you really did not apologize for it, as we
can see from reading the excerpts I included earlier in that regard.


In other words, you missed it and are now scrambling?

Actually, they don't.


Yes, they do. ""It's not about the WMD". I can only go by what you say,
Kevin...Your claiming they were irrelevant was something of a hint". Or are
you now going to say that Google mysteriously created those words in your
name?


That's a paraphrase of your position, no less inaccurate than your
"accurate paraphrases" of my words.

I had the integrity to immediately clarify that the words were a
paraphrase rather than a quotation, and apologise for any
misrepresentation: you've extended me no such courtesy in your multiple
false attributions to me.


No, you did not,


From: Paul J. Adam )
Subject: Sarin in a 155 artillery round
Newsgroups: sci.military.naval
Date: 2004-05-19 13:51:14 PST
+++++
In message , Kevin Brooks
writes
BZZZ! Now you are lying. You already provided the quote in
question,


That was a paraphrase, not a quote: I put the name and date on the quote
so it could be traced.

My apologies if the distinction wasn't clear enough.
+++++

and by this point I have repeatedly shown you did not.


Google sucks, doesn't it, when you lie and get found out?


Meanwhile, the challenge is open if you choose to meet it. Will you back
your claims, or withdraw them? (Or will you make a weak excuse?)


Already have backed them; you are the only one who has provided zero
evidence.


No, Kevin. I offered you a challenge and you immediately claimed that
you couldn't meet it but had terrible travel constraints.

Still, I'll meet you in New York on the 5th if you prefer.

You are, on Saturday 19th.


Come on, run to me baby. Anytime, just let me know when.


July 5th. I'll pass more details as I have them.

You sad sack of
excrement.


Yes, that *really* sums up your intellectual calibre, doesn't it?


--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk
Ads
  #422  
Old June 9th 04, 08:45 PM
Kevin Brooks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Kevin Brooks
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...


snip

Since you saw fit to snip most of the quotes of your own words I presented
to you to support the accuracy of the "standard playbook" characterization
of your argument, it is obvious there is little reason to continue showing
you where your own words do indeed repeatedly convey that thought; it also
points to the fact that continuing this discussion any further is a waste of
effort, since you will just snip those items that prove your basic
dishonesty. But...

Then you had
the unmitigated gall to come back in this thread and claim you *never*
attributed that paraphrase directly to me--


No, I didn't. Where did I claim you said it? Remember, if it's a quote
then it's traceable.


""It's not about the WMD". I can only go by what you say, Kevin...Your
claiming they were irrelevant was
something of a hint." Your meaning was quite clear, and your subsequent
"apology" did not really address your misstep. The fact that you *continue*
to claim yopu never did this is just topping on top of the cake.

snip


See where these baseless claims have been addressed earlier in this

missive.
Now, again--you asked, "Which post of yours did I attribute it to? Where

did
I say that the words in those inverted commas were yours and yours

alone?" I
gave you your answer, also in your own words.


And proved conclusively that you're attributing statements to me that I
never made.


So you are now saying that the Google record of your 18 May statement,
""It's not
about the WMD". I can only go by what you say, Kevin...Your claiming they
were irrelevant was
something of a hint" was not your words. Fine. Some nefarious fellow intent
upon defaming your name must have jumped in and made that statement.

snip

And, getting to the root of the matter, and about the only thing left to be
determined, as it is apparent that continual verbal discourse is a wasted
effort...


In my
experience, a fellow like you who has to resort to repeatedly lying in

order
to try and cover his own missteps, usually is the sort who lacks the

courage
for such encounters--but you are welcome to prove otherwise.

If you want to put it like that?

Fort Widley courtyard, dawn, Saturday 19 June.

Gauntlet's down.


I said when you are in the area; I have never been to the UK, and don't

see
any chance of going.


Oh, how *marvellously* convenient for you.


I told you where this would have to occur up front--odd how you then
lieterally *jumped* at the opportunity of making your invitation one that
you already knew was beyond my reach. Gosh, how gutsy you are!


You, OTOH have indicated that you make periodic visits
to the DC area, right?


No, but I was on holiday there in 2000.

I'll be in New York on the 5th of July, though.

That is close enough for me--I am more than willing
to do a little drivetime if it makes you happy. Seriously. I believe that
makes it "put up or shut up" time to you, does it not?


Certainly does. Shall I see you on the 5th? And will it be swords or
pistols?


As I said before, anytime--and I mean *anytime*, you screw up the courage
and can get to the DC environs, let me know. You are the fellow who
introduced this invitation--so I am assuming you will be quite happy to
drive down for the show...unless you maybe lack the moral fibre to actually
follow through?

snip


Meanwhile, the challenge is open if you choose to meet it. Will you

back
your claims, or withdraw them? (Or will you make a weak excuse?)


Already have backed them; you are the only one who has provided zero
evidence.


No, Kevin. I offered you a challenge and you immediately claimed that
you couldn't meet it but had terrible travel constraints.


LOL! Yeah, right... sure. The response to your initial invite stands.


Still, I'll meet you in New York on the 5th if you prefer.

You are, on Saturday 19th.


Come on, run to me baby. Anytime, just let me know when.


July 5th. I'll pass more details as I have them.


So you are not willing to follow through on your initial invite. Figures.
But hey, as I said when you first brought this up, if you make it to the DC
environs, let me know--only takes me an hour or two to get there.

You sad sack of
excrement.


Yes, that *really* sums up your intellectual calibre, doesn't it?


No, it more accurately sums up your situation. Drop by anytime.

Brooks



  #423  
Old June 9th 04, 10:00 PM
Paul J. Adam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In message , Kevin Brooks
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Kevin Brooks
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...


snip

Since you saw fit to snip most of the quotes of your own words I presented
to you to support the accuracy of the "standard playbook" characterization
of your argument, it is obvious there is little reason to continue showing
you where your own words do indeed repeatedly convey that thought; it also
points to the fact that continuing this discussion any further is a waste of
effort, since you will just snip those items that prove your basic
dishonesty.


What Kevin "accurately paraphrased" is that he alleged, I answered: he
alleged, I answered: he alleged and I answered: and he has no reply.


But...
Then you had
the unmitigated gall to come back in this thread and claim you *never*
attributed that paraphrase directly to me--


No, I didn't. Where did I claim you said it? Remember, if it's a quote
then it's traceable.


""It's not about the WMD". I can only go by what you say, Kevin...Your
claiming they were irrelevant was
something of a hint." Your meaning was quite clear, and your subsequent
"apology" did not really address your misstep. The fact that you *continue*
to claim yopu never did this is just topping on top of the cake.


And I replied, within 24 hours, that it was not a direct quotation any
more than your "accurate paraphrases" (pshaw!) of other folks' words
are, and apologised immediately for any misunderstanding.

(Note that Kevin has wriggled around and eventually claimed I insulted
and lied some other way from his original claim - and snipped out
without reply the immediate retraction and apology for that, too)

snip


And proved conclusively that you're attributing statements to me that I
never made.


So you are now saying that the Google record of your 18 May statement,
""It's not
about the WMD". I can only go by what you say, Kevin...Your claiming they
were irrelevant was
something of a hint" was not your words.


No, I've never denied those words, and I've already apologised for any
possible misinterpretation.

Now, I note *you* have snipped out multiple examples of where you have
falsely attributed words to me... how *remarkably* convenient!

I notice, also, you've neatly elided your repeated claims of "Nobody
said this!" where they were met with published speeches, and "This never
happened!" with the cites that it did.

So, just who's being dishonest here, Kevin?

If you want to put it like that?

Fort Widley courtyard, dawn, Saturday 19 June.

Gauntlet's down.

I said when you are in the area; I have never been to the UK, and don't

see
any chance of going.


Oh, how *marvellously* convenient for you.


I told you where this would have to occur up front-


Kevin, you issued the challenge.

"As to cowardly, the next time you are in the area drop me a
line--I'll be more than happy to let you address that issue in person,
in any form you may so choose, if that is what you really want." Kevin
Brooks, June 8 2004.

By rule and tradition, the challengee gets to choose time, place and
weapons. There is a sizeable body of tradition on the matter. That you
are as ignorant as you are dishonest is no surprise.

It is also no surprise that you avoid the first invitation, and now the
second. Indeed, when it turns out I'm willing to cross the Atlantic to
meet you, you're suddenly unable to even leave the environs of
Washington DC. Not unexpected, but hardly an indication of either your
courage or your certainty.

-odd how you then
lieterally *jumped* at the opportunity of making your invitation one that
you already knew was beyond my reach. Gosh, how gutsy you are!


I played it according to tradition. Then when you claimed it was too
hard for you to travel, I offered to meet you on the far side of an
ocean. You're still running away. What conclusions shall we draw from
this matter?

Certainly does. Shall I see you on the 5th? And will it be swords or
pistols?


As I said before, anytime--and I mean *anytime*, you screw up the courage
and can get to the DC environs, let me know.


In other words, when invited to defend your words, you found it
inconvenient because it was the wrong country.

Then, when the opportunity was offered in your own country, even on the
correct coast, you found it inconvenient because it was the wrong state.

Shall we pursue this spiral downwards? Must I pursue you through excuses
that I'm in the wrong city, the wrong suburb, the wrong neighbourhood,
and eventually that you'd give me satisfaction if only I were not on the
wrong side of the street?

You are the fellow who
introduced this invitation--


Indeed, and I note with amusement your efforts to avoid it - while
loudly trumpeting your enthusiasm.

If I'm taking a three-thousand mile trip, can't you match even a
fraction of that?

so I am assuming you will be quite happy to
drive down for the show...unless you maybe lack the moral fibre to actually
follow through?


As I said, it's a working visit so I'm constrained for time. (Fly in on
the 5th and the ship leaves on the 6th, and time and carriers wait for
no man). So, no long drives, but I'm willing to fit you in.

And you've indicated that you lack the means or the will to visit the UK
(or, perhaps, just the courage).

Still, never fear. There will be a third date and time for you to run
away from. Perhaps even a fourth.

No, Kevin. I offered you a challenge and you immediately claimed that
you couldn't meet it but had terrible travel constraints.


LOL! Yeah, right... sure. The response to your initial invite stands.


Of course: on current form, I could knock at your door and you'd claim
it was "too far" to meet me.

July 5th. I'll pass more details as I have them.


So you are not willing to follow through on your initial invite. Figures.


You've been offered and evaded two places and dates so far. What excuse
will you use for the third?

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk
  #424  
Old June 10th 04, 04:30 AM
Kevin Brooks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Kevin Brooks
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Kevin Brooks
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...


snip

Since you saw fit to snip most of the quotes of your own words I

presented
to you to support the accuracy of the "standard playbook"

characterization
of your argument, it is obvious there is little reason to continue

showing
you where your own words do indeed repeatedly convey that thought; it

also
points to the fact that continuing this discussion any further is a waste

of
effort, since you will just snip those items that prove your basic
dishonesty.


What Kevin "accurately paraphrased" is that he alleged, I answered: he
alleged, I answered: he alleged and I answered: and he has no reply.


Sure you did. Just keep believeing that tripe....



But...
Then you had
the unmitigated gall to come back in this thread and claim you *never*
attributed that paraphrase directly to me--

No, I didn't. Where did I claim you said it? Remember, if it's a quote
then it's traceable.


""It's not about the WMD". I can only go by what you say, Kevin...Your
claiming they were irrelevant was
something of a hint." Your meaning was quite clear, and your subsequent
"apology" did not really address your misstep. The fact that you

*continue*
to claim yopu never did this is just topping on top of the cake.


And I replied, within 24 hours, that it was not a direct quotation any
more than your "accurate paraphrases" (pshaw!) of other folks' words
are, and apologised immediately for any misunderstanding.


But you persisted in claiming it was an accurate paraphrase--it was not. The
ones I have presented of your arguments, OTOH, are supported by your own
past statements.


(Note that Kevin has wriggled around and eventually claimed I insulted
and lied some other way from his original claim - and snipped out
without reply the immediate retraction and apology for that, to



snip


And proved conclusively that you're attributing statements to me that I
never made.


So you are now saying that the Google record of your 18 May statement,
""It's not
about the WMD". I can only go by what you say, Kevin...Your claiming they
were irrelevant was
something of a hint" was not your words.


No, I've never denied those words, and I've already apologised for any
possible misinterpretation.

Now, I note *you* have snipped out multiple examples of where you have
falsely attributed words to me... how *remarkably* convenient!

I notice, also, you've neatly elided your repeated claims of "Nobody
said this!" where they were met with published speeches, and "This never
happened!" with the cites that it did.

So, just who's being dishonest here, Kevin?


You are, and I am growing tired of pointing that out to you, as it obviously
serves no purpose. I do have one regret in this case--I should have just
plonked your lying ass on 18 May, and saved us both the effort of this
current meaningless "he said, she said". You are what you are, and there is
going to be no changing that.


If you want to put it like that?

Fort Widley courtyard, dawn, Saturday 19 June.

Gauntlet's down.

I said when you are in the area; I have never been to the UK, and

don't
see
any chance of going.

Oh, how *marvellously* convenient for you.


I told you where this would have to occur up front-


Kevin, you issued the challenge.

"As to cowardly, the next time you are in the area drop me a
line--I'll be more than happy to let you address that issue in person,
in any form you may so choose, if that is what you really want." Kevin
Brooks, June 8 2004.


Yes, I did. Though I kind of took that "coward" bit of yours as a challenge
in and of itself.


By rule and tradition, the challengee gets to choose time, place and
weapons. There is a sizeable body of tradition on the matter. That you
are as ignorant as you are dishonest is no surprise.


Sorry, I have never had any plans to visit the UK, so if you are really
interested, you'll have to come to the DC area; that is enough of a trip for
me to make.


It is also no surprise that you avoid the first invitation, and now the
second. Indeed, when it turns out I'm willing to cross the Atlantic to
meet you, you're suddenly unable to even leave the environs of
Washington DC. Not unexpected, but hardly an indication of either your
courage or your certainty.


Again, my original invite stands. Let's see, we have Paul, who has mentioned
visiting the DC area before, which would seem to pose a realistic
possibility of him doing so again. Versus me, who has never been to the UK,
and is extremely unlikely to ever have the opportunity of going there in the
future. Now which sounds like a more sincere invitation--the one to the guy
who has frequently commented about his trip(s?) to the DC area, or the one
offered to guy who has never visited your own stately shores? Methinks you
were not actually sincere in that offer about Fort whatever next
weekend...please, say it ain't so?


-odd how you then
lieterally *jumped* at the opportunity of making your invitation one that
you already knew was beyond my reach. Gosh, how gutsy you are!


I played it according to tradition. Then when you claimed it was too
hard for you to travel, I offered to meet you on the far side of an
ocean. You're still running away. What conclusions shall we draw from
this matter?


Go ahead and hide behind your tradition; I'll still be waiting in VA to make
that trek to DC at your leisure.


Certainly does. Shall I see you on the 5th? And will it be swords or
pistols?


As I said before, anytime--and I mean *anytime*, you screw up the courage
and can get to the DC environs, let me know.


In other words, when invited to defend your words, you found it
inconvenient because it was the wrong country.


Gee, again, how sincere was that offer?


Then, when the opportunity was offered in your own country, even on the
correct coast, you found it inconvenient because it was the wrong state.


You could go along with my original offer--anytime.


Shall we pursue this spiral downwards? Must I pursue you through excuses
that I'm in the wrong city, the wrong suburb, the wrong neighbourhood,
and eventually that you'd give me satisfaction if only I were not on the
wrong side of the street?


No, I'd even be willing to meet you halfway (to NYC, that is); do you have a
suitable alternative in mind?


You are the fellow who
introduced this invitation--


Indeed, and I note with amusement your efforts to avoid it - while
loudly trumpeting your enthusiasm.


I have offered to meet you halfway now. Ball's in your court, Captain
Courageous.


If I'm taking a three-thousand mile trip, can't you match even a
fraction of that?


See above.


so I am assuming you will be quite happy to
drive down for the show...unless you maybe lack the moral fibre to

actually
follow through?


As I said, it's a working visit so I'm constrained for time. (Fly in on
the 5th and the ship leaves on the 6th, and time and carriers wait for
no man). So, no long drives, but I'm willing to fit you in.


Oh, so now you have already started building your newest excuse. Halfway?


And you've indicated that you lack the means or the will to visit the UK
(or, perhaps, just the courage).


Just never had any plans to do so, now or in the past--but you already knew
that, didn't you? Which is whaty that whole Fort whatever on 19 June was
just your psing for the stage? Again, halfway?


Still, never fear. There will be a third date and time for you to run
away from. Perhaps even a fourth.

No, Kevin. I offered you a challenge and you immediately claimed that
you couldn't meet it but had terrible travel constraints.


LOL! Yeah, right... sure. The response to your initial invite stands.


Of course: on current form, I could knock at your door and you'd claim
it was "too far" to meet me.


No, not as I have offered to meet you halfway to NYC.


July 5th. I'll pass more details as I have them.


So you are not willing to follow through on your initial invite. Figures.


You've been offered and evaded two places and dates so far. What excuse
will you use for the third?


The offer stands--ball's in your court.

Brooks



  #425  
Old June 10th 04, 10:29 PM
Paul J. Adam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In message , Kevin Brooks
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
What Kevin "accurately paraphrased" is that he alleged, I answered: he
alleged, I answered: he alleged and I answered: and he has no reply.


Sure you did. Just keep believeing that tripe....


Let's take a single example of that "tripe".

Kevin said, this very thread, June 9th -
"Uhmmm...again, where in the White House's case against Iraq did you
find thaose descriptive terms? Eh?"


And I replied that

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt
that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most
lethal weapons ever devised." President G W Bush, March 17 2003


"Some ask how urgent this danger is to America and the world. The danger
is already significant, and it only grows worse with time. If we know
Saddam Hussein has dangerous weapons today -- and we do...

Iraq could decide on any given day to provide a biological or chemical
weapon to a terrorist group or individual terrorists...

Saddam Hussein still has chemical and biological weapons and is
increasing his capabilities to make more. And he is moving ever closer
to developing a nuclear weapon...." President G W Bush, October 17, 2002


So, either President Bush's terms were not "descriptive" of an immediate
and imminent WME threat from Iraq, or Kevin is at best terribly mistaken
and at worst lying through his teeth.


There are plenty more - it's not too surprising Mr Brooks chose to run
away from them, any more than it's a surprise that he's so amnesiac
about his own words and claims.

And I replied, within 24 hours, that it was not a direct quotation any
more than your "accurate paraphrases" (pshaw!) of other folks' words
are, and apologised immediately for any misunderstanding.


But you persisted in claiming it was an accurate paraphrase--it was not.


It was as accurate as any of yours.

The
ones I have presented of your arguments, OTOH, are supported by your own
past statements.


As are yours. You yourself repeatedly claim that it's simply not
possible to work out the priorities: therefore how can WMEs be an issue?
Show me evidence that they entered into the thinking: you claimed
several times that there *was* no reasoning and no analysis involved.

According to you, your own leaders never claimed WME were a factor
(though I provided the transcripts of the speeches where they said just
that - a useful point by which to judge any of your claims, despite your
hasty evasions).


According to you, it's not possible to identify reasons for the
conflict, and none of the factors precipitating conflict can be
identified.

Yet, apparently, with all that loudly-claimed and oft-cited certainty...
you're able to insist that WME *were* a signficant reason.


So, which of your claims is false? Is it possible to break out a reason
with some idea of its relative importance, or is it not? On the one
hand, you insist that such analysis is utterly impossible: yet on the
other hand, you insist that you have conducted just such an analysis and
concluded that WMEs were, in fact, a significant factor.

Which leads us to the question 'how significant'? More or less so than
alleged links to al-Qaeda? More or less so than sponsorship of
Palestinian terrorists? More or less important than Saddam's bad table
manners?

On the one hand you're calling me a liar for doubting your judgement of
this prioritisation: on the other, you loudly and repeatedly insist that
no such prioritisation is possible.

Either way means you've lied repeatedly - I'm curious which set of
statements you're choosing to repudiate.


No, I've never denied those words, and I've already apologised for any
possible misinterpretation.

Now, I note *you* have snipped out multiple examples of where you have
falsely attributed words to me... how *remarkably* convenient!

I notice, also, you've neatly elided your repeated claims of "Nobody
said this!" where they were met with published speeches, and "This never
happened!" with the cites that it did.

So, just who's being dishonest here, Kevin?


You are, and I am growing tired of pointing that out to you, as it obviously
serves no purpose. I do have one regret in this case--I should have just
plonked your lying ass on 18 May, and saved us both the effort of this
current meaningless "he said, she said". You are what you are, and there is
going to be no changing that.


Indeed. I'm sticking to the truth and you're running away from it as
fast as you can - no wonder you wish you'd just gone for a blustering
killfile. When challenged, intellectually or physically, you keep on
retreating until in the end you abandon everything in desperation.



(Are you *sure* you're not Fred McCall under an assumed name?)


Kevin, you issued the challenge.

"As to cowardly, the next time you are in the area drop me a
line--I'll be more than happy to let you address that issue in person,
in any form you may so choose, if that is what you really want." Kevin
Brooks, June 8 2004.


Yes, I did. Though I kind of took that "coward" bit of yours as a challenge
in and of itself.


No, that was an *insult*. The challenge is the response to a slight, a
blow, or an imputation against a lady's honour.

By rule and tradition, the challengee gets to choose time, place and
weapons. There is a sizeable body of tradition on the matter. That you
are as ignorant as you are dishonest is no surprise.


Sorry, I have never had any plans to visit the UK, so if you are really
interested, you'll have to come to the DC area; that is enough of a trip for
me to make.


How *remarkably* convenient. So, you're ignorant of the centuries of
history and the evolved traditions, you're confident that *you* will
never come near me, and now you insist that I should travel thousands of
miles to a few score for you.

And when I offer to meet you on your own continent, your own seaboard,
even closer than original plans would have allowed (I was originally
bound for Charleston but matters changed) you continued to find reasons
why you were suddenly able to match your words with deeds.

It is also no surprise that you avoid the first invitation, and now the
second. Indeed, when it turns out I'm willing to cross the Atlantic to
meet you, you're suddenly unable to even leave the environs of
Washington DC. Not unexpected, but hardly an indication of either your
courage or your certainty.


Again, my original invite stands. Let's see, we have Paul, who has mentioned
visiting the DC area before,


Indeed, once, in 2000, on a personally-funded vacation. (I was in New
Orleans last year, again at my own expense. Several planned trips to the
US have since fallen through for assorted reasons, though I did put in a
very productive week in Halifax further north)


I note with some amusement how this story changes.

"You, OTOH have indicated that you make periodic visits
to the DC area" (Kevin Brooks, June 9)

Guess what? This is another one of Kevin's "accurate paraphrases".

which would seem to pose a realistic
possibility of him doing so again.


Not that much tactical operational analysis in the DC area, sadly.
Though the Navy Yard gives me some hope of seeing what excuse Kevin uses
for avoiding the next encounter.

Versus me, who has never been to the UK,
and is extremely unlikely to ever have the opportunity of going there in the
future.


Which makes flinging out challenges to UK residents *ever* so cheap and
convenient, doesn't it, since you insist they have to come to you (ever
closer, as your own evasions prove) to test your words with steel?

Now which sounds like a more sincere invitation--the one to the guy
who has frequently commented about his trip(s?) to the DC area,


His single vacation, yes.

or the one
offered to guy who has never visited your own stately shores?


So, you're challenging because you're sure you'll never be tested: and
evading as fast as you can when offered opportunity.

Methinks you
were not actually sincere in that offer about Fort whatever next
weekend...please, say it ain't so?


Completely sincere. It's conveniently located for me, ninety minutes by
easy transport (train and taxi) from London for you, and has the
advantages of being a flat, open field where we shouldn't be
interrrupted at that hour. And as a side benefit, the view over the
Solent is superb.

Why, are you changing your mind and offering to present yourself? Or
will I have a lonely wait, with just a sunrise for company?

I played it according to tradition. Then when you claimed it was too
hard for you to travel, I offered to meet you on the far side of an
ocean. You're still running away. What conclusions shall we draw from
this matter?


Go ahead and hide behind your tradition; I'll still be waiting in VA to make
that trek to DC at your leisure.


Of course you will, Kevin. Until I find myself coming to DC, where
you'll find you've got urgent business elsewhere or some other pressing
reason to miss the appointment.

In other words, when invited to defend your words, you found it
inconvenient because it was the wrong country.


Gee, again, how sincere was that offer?


Completely. Both of them.

Now, how sincere was that original challenge, given your evident
enthusiasm to carry it through and your obvious willingness to put
action behind your words?


Then, when the opportunity was offered in your own country, even on the
correct coast, you found it inconvenient because it was the wrong state.


You could go along with my original offer--anytime.


The trouble with that, Kevin, is that you're running away as fast as I
can chase you down.

Shall we pursue this spiral downwards? Must I pursue you through excuses
that I'm in the wrong city, the wrong suburb, the wrong neighbourhood,
and eventually that you'd give me satisfaction if only I were not on the
wrong side of the street?


No, I'd even be willing to meet you halfway (to NYC, that is); do you have a
suitable alternative in mind?


Not immediately to hand, given that it seems I must pursue you in this
matter (doesn't *that* indicate your honesty and conviction!). But if
opportunity offers, then I'll give you another chance to demonstrate
your cowardice.

Indeed, and I note with amusement your efforts to avoid it - while
loudly trumpeting your enthusiasm.


I have offered to meet you halfway now.


"Halfway" is mid-Atlantic, Kevin.

It's worth remembering that this "halfway" offer (halfway between NYC
and DC, not the US and UK... funny how Kevin's claiming to be the brave
and determined one here) came only after Kevin heard I was pressed for
time on the 5th.

If I'm taking a three-thousand mile trip, can't you match even a
fraction of that?


See above.


In other words, "No, I'm too scared" (in a Brooksian 'accurate
paraphrase')

As I said, it's a working visit so I'm constrained for time. (Fly in on
the 5th and the ship leaves on the 6th, and time and carriers wait for
no man). So, no long drives, but I'm willing to fit you in.


Oh, so now you have already started building your newest excuse.


If you want to call it an excuse, *you* persuade a carrier task group to
delay sailing.

Halfway?


Halfway is about thirty-five degrees West, and rather damp.


I'm going very considerably further than that and you're still evading.
If I'm covering thousands of miles, you can manage a few hundred if your
honour is so wounded and your confidence so high.

That it is evidently not... allows obvious conclusions to be drawn.

And you've indicated that you lack the means or the will to visit the UK
(or, perhaps, just the courage).


Just never had any plans to do so, now or in the past--but you already knew
that, didn't you?


I didn't know anything about your travel habits (unlike you, who yet
again made seriously erroneous claims and passed them off as truth), but
I had a suspicion that your challenge was completely insincere and
looked forward to testing it - and I had some tiny hope that you
actually meant what you said.

Which is whaty that whole Fort whatever on 19 June was
just your psing for the stage?


No, the old tradition that the challenged party chooses the ground. I am
quite confident that you would never honour your challenge, but that
doesn't change the fact that I'll do so. Shall I wait there for you?

By tradition, you issued the challenge, you've been told when, where and
how: attend, or forfeit. (Of course, this applied to men of honour,
which is why I know you will not attend)


But, it's a long trip, so I offered you something closer to home. And
again it's too difficult for you.

So, now we just have to wait until I find myself in the DC area to
discover what your next reason why you can't follow your bluster through
might be.


Again, halfway?


Okay, "halfway", but that'll be rather later - probably around the 10th
at a very rough guess - and I presume you'll be swimming unless you find
a mail buoy to cling to.

Of course: on current form, I could knock at your door and you'd claim
it was "too far" to meet me.


No, not as I have offered to meet you halfway to NYC.


After making sure you knew I lacked the time to do so. And yet *you*
claim I'm making insincere offers? I'm sticking to what I can do: you're
large on claims, but short on substance.

I'll see you at Fort Widley on the 19th, or I'll see you in NYC on the
5th, or we'll wait to be amused by your next evasion.


--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk
  #426  
Old June 11th 04, 03:29 AM
Kevin Brooks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Kevin Brooks
writes


snip


No, I'd even be willing to meet you halfway (to NYC, that is); do you

have a
suitable alternative in mind?


Not immediately to hand, given that it seems I must pursue you in this
matter (doesn't *that* indicate your honesty and conviction!). But if
opportunity offers, then I'll give you another chance to demonstrate
your cowardice.


Offer stands.


Indeed, and I note with amusement your efforts to avoid it - while
loudly trumpeting your enthusiasm.


I have offered to meet you halfway now.


"Halfway" is mid-Atlantic, Kevin.

It's worth remembering that this "halfway" offer (halfway between NYC
and DC, not the US and UK... funny how Kevin's claiming to be the brave
and determined one here) came only after Kevin heard I was pressed for
time on the 5th.


Sounds like you are the one making the excuses here. DC was unacceptable to
you; now I guess Philadelphia or thereabouts is equally and conveniently
also unacceptable. Figures.


If I'm taking a three-thousand mile trip, can't you match even a
fraction of that?


See above.


In other words, "No, I'm too scared" (in a Brooksian 'accurate
paraphrase')


The offer still stands.


As I said, it's a working visit so I'm constrained for time. (Fly in on
the 5th and the ship leaves on the 6th, and time and carriers wait for
no man). So, no long drives, but I'm willing to fit you in.


Oh, so now you have already started building your newest excuse.


If you want to call it an excuse, *you* persuade a carrier task group to
delay sailing.


And doubtless if i had offered to meet you at the airport gate you'd have
found some other excuse.


Halfway?


Halfway is about thirty-five degrees West, and rather damp.


I'm going very considerably further than that and you're still evading.
If I'm covering thousands of miles, you can manage a few hundred if your
honour is so wounded and your confidence so high.

That it is evidently not... allows obvious conclusions to be drawn.


Yeah--that you really never had any intent whatsoever of following through.
Again, that is about par for the course with you.


And you've indicated that you lack the means or the will to visit the

UK
(or, perhaps, just the courage).


Just never had any plans to do so, now or in the past--but you already

knew
that, didn't you?


I didn't know anything about your travel habits (unlike you, who yet
again made seriously erroneous claims and passed them off as truth), but
I had a suspicion that your challenge was completely insincere and
looked forward to testing it - and I had some tiny hope that you
actually meant what you said.


Phily is not such a long trip from NYC, now is it?


Which is whaty that whole Fort whatever on 19 June was
just your psing for the stage?


No, the old tradition that the challenged party chooses the ground. I am
quite confident that you would never honour your challenge, but that
doesn't change the fact that I'll do so. Shall I wait there for you?


And choosing ground that you know I have never visited, and have never
indicated I would visit, was oh-so-convenient. Yeah, right.


By tradition, you issued the challenge, you've been told when, where and
how: attend, or forfeit. (Of course, this applied to men of honour,
which is why I know you will not attend)


Can't drag yourself on to Phily; too bad.



But, it's a long trip, so I offered you something closer to home. And
again it's too difficult for you.

So, now we just have to wait until I find myself in the DC area to
discover what your next reason why you can't follow your bluster through
might be.


Anytime.



Again, halfway?


Okay, "halfway", but that'll be rather later - probably around the 10th
at a very rough guess - and I presume you'll be swimming unless you find
a mail buoy to cling to.

Of course: on current form, I could knock at your door and you'd claim
it was "too far" to meet me.


No, not as I have offered to meet you halfway to NYC.


After making sure you knew I lacked the time to do so. And yet *you*
claim I'm making insincere offers? I'm sticking to what I can do: you're
large on claims, but short on substance.


You have plenty of time. Getting from NYC to Phily and back by train on the
same day is no problemo.


I'll see you at Fort Widley on the 19th, or I'll see you in NYC on the
5th, or we'll wait to be amused by your next evasion.


Yeah, right.

Brooks


  #427  
Old June 12th 04, 09:57 PM
Paul J. Adam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In message , Kevin Brooks
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
Not immediately to hand, given that it seems I must pursue you in this
matter (doesn't *that* indicate your honesty and conviction!). But if
opportunity offers, then I'll give you another chance to demonstrate
your cowardice.


Offer stands.


Until I close the range again, whereupon "halfway" will be redefined
(again) and more reasons why you can't present yourself will be
extracted.

Unless, of course, you simply cut it completely and "accurately
paraphrase" it as a refusal.


"Halfway" is mid-Atlantic, Kevin.

It's worth remembering that this "halfway" offer (halfway between NYC
and DC, not the US and UK... funny how Kevin's claiming to be the brave
and determined one here) came only after Kevin heard I was pressed for
time on the 5th.


Sounds like you are the one making the excuses here. DC was unacceptable to
you;


Indeed, since I don't go there regularly - though at least I've visited
a few years ago. However, if I have opportunity I'll seek you out.


I compare with amusement the difference in travel required: I'm "a
coward" for crossing the Atlantic, you're bravely refusing to manage a
relatively short hop.

Just cut and "accurately paraphrase" as you see fit, of course.

now I guess Philadelphia or thereabouts is equally and conveniently
also unacceptable. Figures.


I'm travelling on taxpayer's money, Kevin - unlike you, who appears to
be unwilling to travel at all.

In other words, "No, I'm too scared" (in a Brooksian 'accurate
paraphrase')


The offer still stands.


No, it doesn't, because every time I make it you run away. You
challenged, I gave you time and place, you cried off (hardly
unexpected). I gave you another time and place much closer to home, and
you cried off again.

Now, apparently, nothing less than Philadelphia will do. Okay, but it
wasn't in my travel plans.


(There's a question to be asked about someone whose bravado is in
inverse proportion to range... time will tell how it plays. So far I see
one person trying to accommodate and the challenger making excuse after
excuse)

If you want to call it an excuse, *you* persuade a carrier task group to
delay sailing.


And doubtless if i had offered to meet you at the airport gate you'd have
found some other excuse.


No, I'd have wondered how you'd persuade the bystanders to ignore the
debate that followed. (Why do you think I chose the original location?
Easy to find and reach, yet not too busy at the appointed time, and also
open and flat with good footing)

I'm going very considerably further than that and you're still evading.
If I'm covering thousands of miles, you can manage a few hundred if your
honour is so wounded and your confidence so high.

That it is evidently not... allows obvious conclusions to be drawn.


Yeah--that you really never had any intent whatsoever of following through.


Quite. Is that another "accurate paraphrase"?

Again, that is about par for the course with you.


Indeed. I return your challenge and you either ignore it unanswered or
find reasons why you can travel shorter and shorter distances to honour
your words.

I didn't know anything about your travel habits (unlike you, who yet
again made seriously erroneous claims and passed them off as truth), but
I had a suspicion that your challenge was completely insincere and
looked forward to testing it - and I had some tiny hope that you
actually meant what you said.


Phily is not such a long trip from NYC, now is it?


I've got a ship to catch, which is why I'm required to keep it close
this time.

Never fear: there'll be a third chance to run away.


No, the old tradition that the challenged party chooses the ground. I am
quite confident that you would never honour your challenge, but that
doesn't change the fact that I'll do so. Shall I wait there for you?


And choosing ground that you know I have never visited, and have never
indicated I would visit was oh-so-convenient. Yeah, right.


I've never been to NYC either, and never indicated any willingness to do
so (because I never wanted to) but I'll meet you there.

I've never been to Philadelphia, but apparently I'm meant to leap into
the unknown there as well. Can't make it on this trip, but there may be
other opportunities.


Kevin, do you ever read what you write? I'm offering to meet you on
unfamiliar ground of your choosing, since you refuse to travel. If I
were minded to withdraw rather than enjoy your writhings, I'd point out
that you just proved that I could not trust *your* choice of ground -
yet I'm chasing you through your evasions.

You want to prove *your* sincerity? Come to the UK and we'll fight. Oh,
I forgot, you can't come here and that's not debatable, so I have to
come to the US. Except not just to the US but to the right part of the
US. No, *really* close.

Sounds like you're making claims you can't back up. (I'd offer evidence,
but you'd just cut it and pretend it didn't exist)

By tradition, you issued the challenge, you've been told when, where and
how: attend, or forfeit. (Of course, this applied to men of honour,
which is why I know you will not attend)


Can't drag yourself on to Phily; too bad.


Indeed - on this trip. However, at least I'm planning to drag myself to
your country and have witnessed your evasions: while your boasts become
increasingly desperate and limited as geographical proximity is eroded.


Out of interest, and since you claimed it, why is "ground that you know
I have never visited, and have never indicated I would visit" meant to
be any more acceptable to me than it should be to you? (Find me evidence
that I've ever been to either New York City or Philedelphia or anywhere
in between)


Or are you just lying through your teeth yet again?

Again, by the Old Ways of these matters there's a few centuries of
tradition that left the challenged party to choose the ground: the
challenger then decided whether to pursue the matter or not once the
details were known.

Seems we have *your* answer...


But, it's a long trip, so I offered you something closer to home. And
again it's too difficult for you.

So, now we just have to wait until I find myself in the DC area to
discover what your next reason why you can't follow your bluster through
might be.


Anytime.


No, just until you get offered Philadelphia - and then we find what the
*next* problem is. (Note that I'm less troubled by "ground that you know
I have never visited, and have never indicated I would visit" than you;
perhaps to simplify matters you should simply provide a list of those
places you *would* be willing to make yourself available?)

After making sure you knew I lacked the time to do so. And yet *you*
claim I'm making insincere offers? I'm sticking to what I can do: you're
large on claims, but short on substance.


You have plenty of time.


I do? Arrive around three in the afternoon, need to be on ship by end of
working day.

Getting from NYC to Phily and back by train on the
same day is no problemo.


My map says differently.

(Or I could fly out on the 4th. Yeah, right, that'll be a money-saving
exercise with no cheaper alternative.)

I'll see you at Fort Widley on the 19th, or I'll see you in NYC on the
5th, or we'll wait to be amused by your next evasion.


Yeah, right.


Indeed.

It seems amusement is in order.

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk
  #428  
Old June 13th 04, 05:03 AM
Andy Salvo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Vaughn" wrote in message


I still haven't figured out what Iraq is all about, but it wasn't 9-11 and
it has little or nothing to do with terrorism.



Maybe changing the Middle East, through military action when necessary,
is the essence of the war on terror.

In addition, I wouldn't underestimate the extent of Saddam's polarizing
influence on Arab public opinion at large. An extra 10 years of Saddam
in power, speaking to the Arab masses, are probably more
damaging in that sense than a 2 years occupation followed by the
establishment of a democratic regime.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
  #429  
Old July 1st 04, 11:16 PM
Howard Berkowitz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , Chad Irby
wrote:

In article ,
Howard Berkowitz wrote:

In article , Chad Irby
wrote:

So which is more likely? That someone hid a pile of chemical weapons
(a
medium-sized arsenal of the things would fit in a building the size
of a
house) in a country the size of California, versus your contention
that
they didn't have any and were complying with the UN sanctions?


Or something in between. There were some prototypes hidden away, and
one
or more was given to people setting up IEDs.


...but the people handing them out didn't bother to mention that they
needed to be fired out of a cannon to work?



It's literally possible they didn't know, if their role was "Hey Achmed,
do me a favor and bury this in your garden."
 




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