What do you do in the real world?

Tim wrote:


"Holding Instructions
If you arrive at your clearance limit before receiving clearance
beyond the fix, ATC expects you to maintain the last assigned
altitude and begin holding in accordance with the depicted
holding pattern. If no holding pattern is depicted, you are
expected to begin holding in a standard holding pattern on
the course upon which you approached the fix. You should
immediately request further clearance."


You should immediately pick an approach and land so you stop gumming up
the works.

Newps wrote:


Tim wrote:


"Holding Instructions
If you arrive at your clearance limit before receiving clearance
beyond the fix, ATC expects you to maintain the last assigned
altitude and begin holding in accordance with the depicted
holding pattern. If no holding pattern is depicted, you are
expected to begin holding in a standard holding pattern on
the course upon which you approached the fix. You should
immediately request further clearance."



You should immediately pick an approach and land so you stop gumming up
the works.


I agree - but the OP thinks that since his clearance limit is an airport
that he is to fly to that airport, THEN navigate to an IAF to do an
approach. He wanted to know what to do when arriving at a clearance
limit when there are no published holds at that point. I could not
believe someone flying IFR routinely does not know what to do. That is
why I posted it.

I hope you are not saying to do this at any airport.

This is not a matter of opinion. My clearance limit was an airport
(KVNY to be precise).

So, if your clearance limit is the airport, then why do you go to the
airport then the IAF? You should go to an IAF, then land at your
clearance limit - which is the airport.

Here is another question - how would you navigate to the airport, unless
on an IAP? When would you ever use the airport as a fix and not the
destination?



that he is to fly to that airport, THEN navigate to an IAF to do an
approach.


That is what the regs say to do.

So how in the world would I navigate to the airport using just a VOR?
The only way to do it is to use an IAP. Thus, I fly the IAP to my
clearance limit -0 which is the aiport I filed to.



He wanted to know what to do when arriving at a clearance
limit when there are no published holds at that point. I could not
believe someone flying IFR routinely does not know what to do.


Believe it. I fly IFR routinely. (But I don't lose comm routinely.)


Right, but you were also unaware of what to do when reaching a clearance
limit with no more instructions and no published hold.

rg

Ron Garret wrote:
In article ,
Tim wrote:


So you are saying that one has to change operating rules based on the
route of the flight.


No, I am not saying that. Why do you keep putting words in my mouth?


I don't have to - they are right he
"Because it's a different route. The circumstances are different. What
one does when flying to FUL may or may not apply when flying to VNY."

If you did not mean that, then please explain to my why you have two
different examples and two different scenarios? I would imagine that
the regulations provide a good description of what has to happen for all
circumstances.

All I tried to point out was the fallacy of your suggestions in your
examples.


It is your clearance limit because that is where you filed to and where
you want to land.


No, it was my clearance limit because that is where I was cleared to.


Yes, I understand that. And they gave you that clearance limit because
that is what you requested from them - when you filed. That is the end
of your flight and they gave you a clearance to there. It is not a
clearance to hold there is it? Because what you are arguing is that you
really only have a clearance to circle the airport every time you get
a clearance that starts with "cleared to xxx airport" and ends in
"...direct." You are expecting that every time you fly to an airport
you are going to fly to the airport, but somewhere along the line a
controller is going to lead you to an IAF, the final approach course, or
some other way get you to land.

If your clearance limit is an airport, what makes you think you can't
execute an IAP and land? Why would you think that the clearance limit
for your airport is at some altitude other than 0 AGL?

I am beginning to suspect that MX is right and you don't actually have a
clue.

That is fine with me.



Again, "direct" does not mean direct to the airport.


That's news to me. Where in the regs does it say that?


When you don't lose comms and you file and fly to an airport and do not
get vectors, where do you go to? You go to an IAF, right?


Not usually. Usually I get vectors to the FAF. I fly in pretty
congested airspace where full approaches are quite rare.


I misunderstood your initial question and I apologize for any demeaning
statements. It appeared to me that you were not aware of what the FARs
stated. Again, my apologies.


Well, it's possible I'm missing something. We seem to have a difference
of opinion about what a direct clearance means. I'm still waiting for a
citation to support your position.

rg

In article , Tim
wrote:

Newps wrote:


Tim wrote:


"Holding Instructions
If you arrive at your clearance limit before receiving clearance
beyond the fix, ATC expects you to maintain the last assigned
altitude and begin holding in accordance with the depicted
holding pattern. If no holding pattern is depicted, you are
expected to begin holding in a standard holding pattern on
the course upon which you approached the fix. You should
immediately request further clearance."



You should immediately pick an approach and land so you stop gumming up
the works.


I agree - but the OP thinks that since his clearance limit is an airport

This is not a matter of opinion. My clearance limit was an airport
(KVNY to be precise).

that he is to fly to that airport, THEN navigate to an IAF to do an
approach.

That is what the regs say to do.

He wanted to know what to do when arriving at a clearance
limit when there are no published holds at that point. I could not
believe someone flying IFR routinely does not know what to do.

Believe it. I fly IFR routinely. (But I don't lose comm routinely.)

rg

In article ,
Tim wrote:

So you are saying that one has to change operating rules based on the
route of the flight.

No, I am not saying that. Why do you keep putting words in my mouth?

It is your clearance limit because that is where you filed to and where
you want to land.

No, it was my clearance limit because that is where I was cleared to.

I am beginning to suspect that MX is right and you don't actually have a
clue.

Again, "direct" does not mean direct to the airport.


That's news to me. Where in the regs does it say that?


When you don't lose comms and you file and fly to an airport and do not
get vectors, where do you go to? You go to an IAF, right?

Not usually. Usually I get vectors to the FAF. I fly in pretty
congested airspace where full approaches are quite rare.

I misunderstood your initial question and I apologize for any demeaning
statements. It appeared to me that you were not aware of what the FARs
stated. Again, my apologies.

Well, it's possible I'm missing something. We seem to have a difference
of opinion about what a direct clearance means. I'm still waiting for a
citation to support your position.

rg

Mark Hansen writes:

If you deem that lost communications is an emergency, and use that to
justify doing whatever you want, you're in violation of the regs.

You're never in violation of regulations if you deem a situation to be an
emergency. As the pilot in command, your decision on whether or not a
situation is an emergency is final (FAR 91.3).

Two-way communication by radio is required in controlled airspaces because it
is dangerous to have aircraft flying around in them without it. Therefore a
loss of radio communication is a potentially dangerous situation, and a pilot
may well condider it an emergency. The AIM makes this clear (6-4-1(b)). The
determination is made by the pilot alone. Pilots with emergencies are still
expected to adhere to the standard IFR lost-communications procedures to the
extent possible given the nature of their emergencies.

The AIM goes into more detail than the regulations from which it is derived,
but it still does not cover every situation, and explicitly says so.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Ron Garret writes:

Quite so, but keeping my ticket is not my only consideration. There is
also the safety of the flight to consider. Following the regs requires
more time in the air, more maneuvering, more fuel consumption, and
unnecessary traversal of extremely crowded airspace in IMC. All this
entails additional risk. If I'm faced with a choice of risking my
ticket or risking my safety I'll take the former.

If you declare an emergency, there is no regulatory problem with this. You
don't put your license at risk simply because you do something that you deem
essential for the safety of your flight.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Tim writes:

If you don't believe that if your clearance limit is the airport and
that you can pick any approach and IAF and execute it when lost coms,
then you can try this:

from "Instrument Flying Handbook"
FAA H 8083 15
page 10-11

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/a...-8083-15-2.pdf

"Holding Instructions
If you arrive at your clearance limit before receiving clearance
beyond the fix, ATC expects you to maintain the last assigned
altitude and begin holding in accordance with the depicted
holding pattern. If no holding pattern is depicted, you are
expected to begin holding in a standard holding pattern on
the course upon which you approached the fix. You should
immediately request further clearance."

That last part might be difficult without a radio.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Tim wrote:

This is not a matter of opinion. My clearance limit was an airport
(KVNY to be precise).

So, if your clearance limit is the airport, then why do you go to the
airport then the IAF? You should go to an IAF, then land at your
clearance limit - which is the airport.

Indeed, there is confusion about a clearance limit and the route
involved in getting there.

Here is another question - how would you navigate to the airport,
unless on an IAP? When would you ever use the airport as a fix and
not the destination?

When one files flight plans lazily. Our ex-ATC friend at avweb
complains about this regularly. One is supposed to include an
approach facility at the end of the route.

- FChE