Instrument Approaches and procedure turns....

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote:
YIKES! I didn't see that... This leads to another question. I thought
that if an item of equipment was required that it appeared as part of the
approach plate description, such as; LOC DME 29 ????

I believe it only gets into the approach title if it's required as the
primary navaid (i.e. something you need to fly the final approach
course). So, a LOC 29 would only be called a LOC DME 29 if you needed
DME to locate the FAF or MAP. If you can fly the approach itself
without DME, and only need DME to fly the missed, then it gets a "DME
required" note. I may be messing up a few details, but that's the gist
of it.

As far as your "YIKES! I didn't see that..." comment, that's the reason
why it's a bad idea to ad-lib approaches. Often times there will be a
note or restriction on an approach plate that appears to make no sense,
and it's very temping to just ignore it. Sometimes, you won't figure
out what the reason was until it's too late to do much about it.

(Michael) writes:

Now for the real question - why in the world is DME required for this
approach?

To positively identify NALLS. You get false LOC lobes coming from
the south.

-jav

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote
If you look at the approach plate for KWVI/WVI LOC Rwy 2, there is no
requirement for DME.

Yes, there is. There is a note right across it that says "DME or RADAR required."

All that's there is a localizer (without glide slope -
making the approach non-precision) and a NDB which isn't even part of this
approach procedure (there is a separate NDB approach for the same runway,
though).

Right. So why the note? Makes no sense to me.

Thanks for the clarification on the feeder route. By the way isn't this
approach an example where the initial approach fix and the FAF are one and
the same?

Yep.

Michael

"Roy Smith" wrote in message ...
If you can fly the approach itself
without DME, and only need DME to fly the missed, then it gets a "DME
required" note. I may be messing up a few details, but that's the gist
of it.

That's fine, but there isn't a single DME fix on there (not even the missed).
That's the mystery.
..

"Javier Henderson" wrote in message ...
(Michael) writes:

Now for the real question - why in the world is DME required for this
approach?

To positively identify NALLS. You get false LOC lobes coming from
the south.

Then isn't NALLS is charted wrong.

That's not the answer I got when I called the SJC FSDO a few years
back. See my other post on this subject regarding false LOC lobes
coming from the south.


You should never ask FSDO anything technical.

Very often, DME is required in feeder routes intercepting a localizer
for the reason you say; however, this approach doesn't have DME
authorized in that context.

That said, according to AirNav, the fix NALLS can be identified using
DME off of SNS. I'd guess a charting error.

So maybe FSDO and IFRR were both right.

I believe it only gets into the approach title if it's required as
the primary navaid (i.e. something you need to fly the final approach
course).

Yes. But the FAA has some tricky definitions of what's required to fly
final. If there's a stepdown fix you need that's determined by DME
prior to the FAF, you'd still get DME in the title. (That's why you
might have ILS DME).

I don't really approve of that, but they didn't ask me. ;-)

Bob Gardner wrote:

Gotta go along with Dave. Don't fall into the trap of flying outbound a
certain number of minutes...the changing wind makes that a poor choice. Go
out until you are beneath the glideslope and, as Dave says, far enough so
that you have time to get squared away (and get a handle on the wind at PT
altitude...which is a clue, but not the answer, to the wind going downhill).


By now every serious instrument pilot should have GPS on-board. If not an IFR
unit, then at least a good hand-held. With that a consistant *distance* from
the PT fix outbound at which to begin the turn brings it all into the 21st
Century.

And, of course, RNAV(GPS) procedures themselves never have a procedure turn. If
a course-reversal initial approach segment is required in the design, it will
always be a holding pattern reversal.

With the proper use of modern avionics timing of any phase of an instrument
procedure should be a thing of the past.

wrote in message ...


Ron Natalie wrote:

"Roy Smith" wrote in message ...
If you can fly the approach itself
without DME, and only need DME to fly the missed, then it gets a "DME
required" note. I may be messing up a few details, but that's the gist
of it.

That's fine, but there isn't a single DME fix on there (not even the missed).
That's the mystery.
.

There is a DME fix for the SNS feeder route. There is also another note about simul reception of
both the SNS DME and LOC. Could be that the notes are the result of flight inspection comments.

Actually it says "Simoultaneous reception of I-AYN and SNS VORTAC required."
..

Yes, it does.

Bob

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message
m...
Bob, sorry to ask another different question, but I saw your communication
software in my local airport shop and wanted to know if it covers IFR
communication practice as well as the VFR (which I already have)? If so,
it
is quite a bargain, 'cause another software company charges separate price
for each version.

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

My personal adventures as a student pilot
and after my PPL: www.bayareapilot.com
"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
Gotta go along with Dave. Don't fall into the trap of flying outbound a
certain number of minutes...the changing wind makes that a poor choice.
Go
out until you are beneath the glideslope and, as Dave says, far enough
so
that you have time to get squared away (and get a handle on the wind at
PT
altitude...which is a clue, but not the answer, to the wind going
downhill).

Bob Gardner

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote in message
. ..
I'm reviewing the approach plates for my Instrument lesson this coming
Thursday (which I just realized is September 11, of all things..).
I've
found it useful to 'practice' approaches using OnTop flight sim
before
my
lessons, seems to give me more 'bang for the buck'.

Anyway (I'm sorry, in advance, if I'm am asking something that should
be
obvious), I'm looking at the LOC Rwy 2 approach to Watsonville
Municipal
(California). There is a procedure turn that sits just before the
'entrance' into the localizer. How does one identify where it
actually
is
(the beginning of the procedure turn, that is)? Does one simply fly
up
the
localizer and when the localizer signal is lost THAT is where the
location
of the procedure turn sits?

Thanks in advance!

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

My personal adventures as a student pilot
and after my PPL: www.bayareapilot.com