Mid-Air Collisions

Kinda like tow signals...there are a lot of pilots
making a lot of assumptions. I have a lot of
gliders come join me close in a thermal WITHOUT my
agreement. There's some assuming going on there...

I'd say the number one rule is get the
agreement with the other pilot. In that conversation
or prearrangement, one can be as specific or general
as the pilots want. There are volumes on formation
flying (at least for power) and pilots who fly
formation with absolutely no training or research
are missing some excellent lessons learned
by others...and accepting a somewhat higher level
of risk...

From my limited formation training, I learned
enough to choose, at my low skill level, to
generally avoid it. There were enough nuances and
dangers, and my time was too limited to do it right
and remain very proficient, that I choose very loose
trail formations, clear exit agreement, and day VFR CAVU
with an experienced leader, or nothing at all.

Towing near clouds or dual flights with low vis
and cropdusters nearby have, in my past, made me uncomfortable
enough to release, land, and call it a day...
Close gliders I don't know have backed me away,
and even my buddies forming up get "no thanks"
most of the time...

In article ,
TOM RENT wrote:
I'm sure almost every RAS reader has read every word of Paul's account
because we all have been in the same situation numerous times and could see
the same thing happen to us at any moment.

I have a lot of soaring books but it is interesting that little is written
or formally taught about this aspect of soaring. Outside of the basic rule
of gaggle flying in the same direction as others, I think we need a stamdard
protocol for any proximity or formation flying which we all rouinely do.
Outside of stall/spin in the pattern, mid-airs during proximit/formation
flying (including gaggles) is likely the next most dangerous situation we
activily place ourselves in.

1. What is the safest way to enter a gaggle, and what are the most unsafe
ways?
2. If you lose sight of another glider that you are gaggling with, should
you keep thermalling or head away? (assume no radio available)
3. What is the safest way to exit a gaggle, and what are the most unsafe
ways?
4. Pair flying - best practices and worst practices ....?


Let's express our best ideas here and perhaps this too will save lives.

I do know that these recent events have caused members of our local club to
immediately begin studying our local methods and habits, which I think this
activity will result in some pretty healthy positive changes.




--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Trevor Nash wrote:
One more thought about Mid Air Collisions.

Next time you are belting along under a cloud street
at 90 - 100 Knots plus.

How far away will the other glider be, doing the same
thing in the opposite direction, when you see it, and
how long have you got to make the right decision with
a closing speed of 200 knots!!!!!!!

I t looked like about a quarter mile. But we were each only doing
80-85kts. Maybe 100 yds closest approach.
Something to keep in mid while flying in mountains (this was just north
of Salida, CO), white gliders with clouds, mountains, and snow behind
them are really wearing camouflage.

Shawn
Been there done that. Not my idea of fun.

I see that Europeons use a lot of anti-collision markings on
their sailplanes. I don't know if it's a requirement over there
but it seems like a good idea. Is there a reason why U.S. glider
owners resist this trend. Thanks, __Mike Ziaskas

Thanks for the in-depth response. This could very well be helpful to
the rest of us who hope to never be in a similar situation.

BTW: it is customary to buy that repacker a bottle/case of his
favorite drink.

Tom

In some recent testing by the BGA it appears that, if anything, anti
collision marking may actually make aircraft less easily noticable.

Most of the midairs that we have seen recently have been between sailplanes
that knew there was another aircraft in close proximity before the collision
happened and in several cases have been between sailplanes actively involved
in 'cooperative flying'. When two 'non-cooperative' pilots happen to end up
sharing a thermal they tend to do so with a very high degree of caution
about each others actions. When cooperative flying gets going it appears to
me that a degree of familiarity or complacency creeps in.

It appears to me that the guidance emerging here seems to be 'assume
nothing, if you loose sight of the aircraft you know to be close by, talk
quickly to clarify the sitation whilst increasing your seperation safely'.
Perhaps safe cooperative flying does need a much higher level of
communication. Perhaps pilots flying cooperatively should carrry FRS radios
to allow them to chatter continuously. As one poster has already noted,
cooperative flying is a form of advanced formation flying with continuous
formation breaks and reformates and without much of a plan. In that
situation you have to know what you are up to, what the other pilot is doing
and the actions to take when the script gets lost! I remember a talk given
by a member of a top formation aerobatics display team in which he said that
once an aircraft in the formation was not where it was expected to be, when
it was supposed to be there, the only option was to break away and resync
the whole operation.

I have witnessed 2 mid-airs, thankfully with only one fatality amongst my
fellow pilots. Both were in non-cooperative flying. Both could possibly
have been avoided by better observation.

Ian

Already in the works... He likes single malt Scotch which runs about $60 a
bottle here, small price to pay, though.

Paul


"Tom Seim" wrote in message
om...
Thanks for the in-depth response. This could very well be helpful to
the rest of us who hope to never be in a similar situation.

BTW: it is customary to buy that repacker a bottle/case of his
favorite drink.

Tom

Other gliders joining your thermal is quite normal, and I wouldn't ask you
for permission...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Mark James Boyd" a écrit dans le message de
news:40800ea2$1@darkstar...
Kinda like tow signals...there are a lot of pilots
making a lot of assumptions. I have a lot of
gliders come join me close in a thermal WITHOUT my
agreement. There's some assuming going on there...

I'd say the number one rule is get the
agreement with the other pilot. In that conversation
or prearrangement, one can be as specific or general
as the pilots want. There are volumes on formation
flying (at least for power) and pilots who fly
formation with absolutely no training or research
are missing some excellent lessons learned
by others...and accepting a somewhat higher level
of risk...

From my limited formation training, I learned
enough to choose, at my low skill level, to
generally avoid it. There were enough nuances and
dangers, and my time was too limited to do it right
and remain very proficient, that I choose very loose
trail formations, clear exit agreement, and day VFR CAVU
with an experienced leader, or nothing at all.

Towing near clouds or dual flights with low vis
and cropdusters nearby have, in my past, made me uncomfortable
enough to release, land, and call it a day...
Close gliders I don't know have backed me away,
and even my buddies forming up get "no thanks"
most of the time...

In article ,
TOM RENT wrote:
I'm sure almost every RAS reader has read every word of Paul's account
because we all have been in the same situation numerous times and could
see
the same thing happen to us at any moment.

I have a lot of soaring books but it is interesting that little is
written
or formally taught about this aspect of soaring. Outside of the basic
rule
of gaggle flying in the same direction as others, I think we need a
stamdard
protocol for any proximity or formation flying which we all rouinely do.
Outside of stall/spin in the pattern, mid-airs during proximit/formation
flying (including gaggles) is likely the next most dangerous situation we
activily place ourselves in.

1. What is the safest way to enter a gaggle, and what are the most
unsafe
ways?
2. If you lose sight of another glider that you are gaggling with,
should
you keep thermalling or head away? (assume no radio available)
3. What is the safest way to exit a gaggle, and what are the most unsafe
ways?
4. Pair flying - best practices and worst practices ....?


Let's express our best ideas here and perhaps this too will save lives.

I do know that these recent events have caused members of our local club
to
immediately begin studying our local methods and habits, which I think
this
activity will result in some pretty healthy positive changes.




--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA