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#21
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In article , Ben Flewett
writes I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance. A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain than a fabric over metal ship. I don’t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship. Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So it must be next to impossible to do spin training in the glass job? -- Mike Lindsay |
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Don Johnstone wrote:
The original post was asking for an opinion on the relative suitability of a Grob Acro versus a K13 from someone with experience. I would have thought that was sensible. Whether it was sensible to seek that on ras is perhaps open to debate. To answer the original question, as always it depends. I have instructed extensively on both with over 2500 launches in a Grob Acro and sending over 100 students under the age of 21 solo in it. It is probably one of the best ab initio training gliders I have even flown. Its main rival, the ASK21 is, like all Scheicher gliders, better harmonised and probably slightly easier to teach in, however the Grob is far more robust. (I have never seen the disappearing nosewheel syndrome in a Grob) If you just want to teach people to fly solo and not go off soaring then either glider will do. If however you want to teach beyond that the the Grob is the proper option. If you are teaching people and are expecting them to go straight into a GRP glider as their first single seat machine then the Grob is the best option. If you want to reduce your long term maintenance costs then the Grob is the best option (You don't have to recover a Grob every few years, and the gelcoat is almost bomb proof). If you want to reduce your insurance bill then the K13 may be the way to go. If you want a much wider and larger cockpit loading option then the Grob is the answer. In my opinion there really is no contest. The K13 was a fine glider, in it's day, and still is in some ways but for overall robustness, suitability for training for GRP flying, and the ability to provide realistic xcountry training it has had it's day. The Grob is the best option even if you have to find a trailer for it. At 07:42 28 April 2004, Graeme Cant wrote: mrw wrote: Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than yours Robert? Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!! It may well be fragile, but I suspect that the real problem is something like this: Robert and/or his buddies know there are slush funds available from the Student Union to student clubs who know what hoops to jump through and have the right contacts. Maintaining a good but geriatric K13 does not qualify as a proper use for student taxes but assisting the purchase of a glossy, all-white, curvaceous, T-tailed Acro might well qualify. In fact Robert had probably carefully written the grant application and successfully sounded out his mates who were operators on the Union Council. If the NUGC wanted an Acro, the fix was in. Keeping news of the proposal from their political opponents on the Union (who want all of the funds reserved to send THEM on holidays to sunny places as delegates attending conferences on student poverty and homelessness, etc) was vital to its success however. Scott has successfully screwed that aspect thoroughly. Scott's other mistake was not his responsibility but Robert can't kick contributors to ras. Scott got the wrong answer. The majority of respondents correctly told him (and Robert) to stick with the K13 and stick the Acro somewhere else - especially without a trailer. Boy is Robert p...ed with Scott!! All that work for nothing. When the Council debates the GC's application, all the replies from ras will be quoted by the opposition! And he can't even write it up as an assignment in Pol Sci 201. Bugger! Scott: Don't worry unles Robert is chief Duty Pilot (you won't be doing much flying for a while) or CFI (you'll be on daily checks for years). Your question was a good one and the answer is - keep the K13. Best of luck with your next project. Graeme Cant 'Robert Richards' wrote in message ... Scott,In future it wuld be nice if you checked stuff out with the rest of the committee before making statements in public. I know you are only speaking for yourself, but you seem to have forgetten that as you are on the committe of NUGC, what you say can be easily interpreted as being the position of the committee as a whole.As it is you've caused a lot of embarrassment and caused me to acrifice several hours of coursework writing time to sort out the bloody mess you've made.Perhaps in future you could make it clear that you are speaking on behalf of yourself, rather than implying that you are speaking for all of us?And why on earth you expect anyone on here tod know anything about getting a grant from our student union (NOT the university!!) is beyond me.Just to set the record straight, the coments below are not the comments of NUGC, just of an individual.RobertPres. NUGCAt 15:54 26 April 2004, Scott MacLeman wrote:I am a member of the council for my University gliding club - fairly new compared to most of the people in this forum, but hey i enjoy it.We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly) serviceable trailer.we have been offered an Acro with no trailer, and in order to buy it we will need to sell our K13.I was wondering whether it would be worth it - because the deal we have been offered for the acro is not massivly great. and there are several drawbacks.mainly - asking for a grant from the university. selling the k13 not having a trailer with it.Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think.Thanks, I fly at a club that has a fleet of one K13 and one Grob 103 TwinAstir (much maligned earlier version) Some comments - In weak conditions the Grob sits in the hangar, she is just too heavy to man handle on the airfield bashing circuits for it to be fun. The K13 thermals better in lighter broken lift so everyone wants to be in the K13 on marginal days. The level of discomfort in the rear seat is similar in the TwinAstir because of the strange shape of the back rest. From the front seat I personally prefer the Grob, because I am a great lump with long legs and the bigger cockpit is more comfortable. The K13 requires and gets more maintenance, with recovering and the like, but after decades of service this is a solid investment for the club. Once you take the capital costs into consideration, and the fact that some club members actually want to do the maintenance work (for free, because they enjoy it) the K13 is actually slightly cheaper to keep than the Grob. Both of the gliders have trailers, but we would never consider being out of gliding range of the field with the K13... It might take the whole club to recover her from a field. On a strong day when the mountains beacon, there is a queue for the Grob. For what it is worth the Grob performs similarly to my Standard Cirrus on cross country. Not bad for a "plastic pig". If there had to be only one - I suspect it would be the K13, having both is great. Having a Twin II, so we could still do the aerobatics in the twin would be best. |
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Mark Davies wrote in message
If you actually knew anything at all about this you would know that the nickname of plastic pig was actually regarding the earlier Twin Astir and NOT the completly different Twin II Acro on which thousands of people have learnt to fly. Well actually my club has BOTH a Twin II Acro and a Twin Astir and, with many hours in both, I find the Astir to be much nicer to fly! The ailerons on the Astir, though just as heavy as the Acro, actually ROLL the aircraft and the spoilers don't snatch the way they do on the Acro. Admittedly the back seat on the Acro is a huge improvement on the Astir. And as for the AD banning aerobatics, again if you knew what you were talking about you would know that the Twin II Acro limitations have been lifted to allow it to do the same aerobatics (including spinning) as a K13, only rolling and inverted is still currently unallowed without modification and this type of flying is definitaly only for those who have recieved training in this fine art. You're right about the A.D of course. It has been modified to allow these manouvers. The more advanced aerobatics it was certified for are still off limits which means that while we paid for a fully aerobatic trainer we no longer can use it as such. The point I was trying (and failing) to make was that, at the moment, the Acro wouldn't provide them any more functionality than a K13 in this area. Oddly enough, in speaking up for the Acro you made this point much clearer thans I did. As for spinning, good luck. the Acro's very docile in the stall but difficult to get a good spin out of. Let go of your inhibitions and move with the times or else you may stay nowhere for ever!. Actually I own a glass single seater and I feel the best two seater I've ever flown is the Duo Discus so I'm hardly mired in the past. I just don't like the Acro that much and don't see how this deal would be of any benefit to this club. |
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I think what many have overlooked is that even today with the K-13 still
increasing in value (no club that I know wants to give one up!) it is still a great trainer fully capable of taking a student from first flight to early X/C (no one says you have to see how quick you get it over with!), an enjoyable Sunday afternoon flyer, and safe.....it's also not yet so expensive we have to restrict who can fly it or raise the dues or rental fees to own it....sure a Grob is nice enough and feels more like an old Buick than a sports car, the K-13 is almost like the family wagon that did take us all on vacations and still will....the K13 will fly slower and stay up when the rest of the fleet is on the ground.. Most pilots will eventually own their own single seaters anyway (at least in the USA) and progress beyond the 2 seat trainer, so if they spend less on more K13's the logic is they will have better access to club members and more members....makes sense to me at least.... regardless....go fly! tim I fly at a club that has a fleet of one K13 and one Grob 103 TwinAstir (much maligned earlier version) Some comments - In weak conditions the Grob sits in the hangar, she is just too heavy to man handle on the airfield bashing circuits for it to be fun. The K13 thermals better in lighter broken lift so everyone wants to be in the K13 on marginal days. The level of discomfort in the rear seat is similar in the TwinAstir because of the strange shape of the back rest. From the front seat I personally prefer the Grob, because I am a great lump with long legs and the bigger cockpit is more comfortable. The K13 requires and gets more maintenance, with recovering and the like, but after decades of service this is a solid investment for the club. Once you take the capital costs into consideration, and the fact that some club members actually want to do the maintenance work (for free, because they enjoy it) the K13 is actually slightly cheaper to keep than the Grob. Both of the gliders have trailers, but we would never consider being out of gliding range of the field with the K13... It might take the whole club to recover her from a field. On a strong day when the mountains beacon, there is a queue for the Grob. For what it is worth the Grob performs similarly to my Standard Cirrus on cross country. Not bad for a "plastic pig". If there had to be only one - I suspect it would be the K13, having both is great. Having a Twin II, so we could still do the aerobatics in the twin would be best. |
#25
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Mike Lindsay wrote:
In article , Ben Flewett writes I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance. A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain than a fabric over metal ship. I don?t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship. Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So it must be next to impossible to do spin training in the glass job? An instructor asked me to do spin in a Janus. I can assure you there is no problem entering spin in a Janus, that speed builds up quite fast, and that you are happy to get out of spin as fast as possible. But you are right, the ASK13 is perfect for doing spin. It demonstrates spin much more clearly than the ASK21! However, and contrarily to what has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France people have generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21 or Twin Astirs (at least those who were rich enough). Is it true that the K13 allows to stay in the air in weak conditions when plastic gilders cannot? Sincerely i doubt that, particularly if there is the lightest wind, you will be out of luck, while with a Janus for example, you can still go against the wind and use flaps in light thermals. -- Michel TALON |
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The K21 is quite hard to spin except when it's very
close to the rear CofG .. From a training perspective the K21 is seen as a little too benign by some UK instructors, although it's incredibly tough as an airframe.. Twin Astirs tend to be a little fragile in the u/c department for intensive ab-initio work, and they can be hard work to soar in weak conditions.. My current favourite is the DG1000 which the guys at Sutton Bank were happy to let me fly a few weeks ago ... Mark At 09:18 29 April 2004, Michel Talon wrote: Mike Lindsay wrote: In article , Ben Flewett writes I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance. A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain than a fabric over metal ship. I don?t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship. Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So it must be next to impossible to do spin training in the glass job? An instructor asked me to do spin in a Janus. I can assure you there is no problem entering spin in a Janus, that speed builds up quite fast, and that you are happy to get out of spin as fast as possible. But you are right, the ASK13 is perfect for doing spin. It demonstrates spin much more clearly than the ASK21! However, and contrarily to what has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France people have generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21 or Twin Astirs (at least those who were rich enough). Is it true that the K13 allows to stay in the air in weak conditions when plastic gilders cannot? Sincerely i doubt that, particularly if there is the lightest wind, you will be out of luck, while with a Janus for example, you can still go against the wind and use flaps in light thermals. -- Michel TALON |
#27
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The K21 is quite hard to spin except when it's very
close to the rear CofG .. From a training perspective the K21 is seen as a little too benign by some UK instructors, although it's incredibly tough as an airframe.. Twin Astirs tend to be a little fragile in the u/c department for intensive ab-initio work, and they can be hard work to soar in weak conditions.. My current favourite is the DG1000 which the guys at Sutton Bank were happy to let me fly a few weeks ago ... Mark At 09:18 29 April 2004, Michel Talon wrote: Mike Lindsay wrote: In article , Ben Flewett writes I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance. A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain than a fabric over metal ship. I don?t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship. Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So it must be next to impossible to do spin training in the glass job? An instructor asked me to do spin in a Janus. I can assure you there is no problem entering spin in a Janus, that speed builds up quite fast, and that you are happy to get out of spin as fast as possible. But you are right, the ASK13 is perfect for doing spin. It demonstrates spin much more clearly than the ASK21! However, and contrarily to what has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France people have generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21 or Twin Astirs (at least those who were rich enough). Is it true that the K13 allows to stay in the air in weak conditions when plastic gilders cannot? Sincerely i doubt that, particularly if there is the lightest wind, you will be out of luck, while with a Janus for example, you can still go against the wind and use flaps in light thermals. -- Michel TALON |
#28
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At 10:06 29 April 2004, Mark Stevens wrote:
The K21 is quite hard to spin except when it's very close to the rear CofG .. From a training perspective the K21 is seen as a little too benign by some UK instructors, although it's incredibly tough as an airframe.. Twin Astirs tend to be a little fragile in the u/c department for intensive ab-initio work, and they can be hard work to soar in weak conditions.. My current favourite is the DG1000 which the guys at Sutton Bank were happy to let me fly a few weeks ago ... Mark At 09:18 29 April 2004, Michel Talon wrote: Mike Lindsay wrote: In article , Ben Flewett writes I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance. A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain than a fabric over metal ship. I don?t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship. Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So it must be next to impossible to do spin training in the glass job? An instructor asked me to do spin in a Janus. I can assure you there is no problem entering spin in a Janus, that speed builds up quite fast, and that you are happy to get out of spin as fast as possible. But you are right, the ASK13 is perfect for doing spin. It demonstrates spin much more clearly than the ASK21! However, and contrarily to what has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France people have generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21 or Twin Astirs (at least those who were rich enough). Is it true that the K13 allows to stay in the air in weak conditions when plastic gilders cannot? Sincerely i doubt that, particularly if there is the lightest wind, you will be out of luck, while with a Janus for example, you can still go against the wind and use flaps in light thermals. -- Michel TALON At my club we still retain a K-13 for spin training as our K-21's are almost impossible to spin. We checked with the BGA some time ago and they confirmed that it is a requirement to undergo full spin training prior to solo. We also explored the possibility of using the spin kit (tail weights) as supplied with one of our K-21's. We got no-where with this in regards certification, manuals etc. However we're getting a DG-1000 and so we will then sell the K-13. It will be sad to see it go; we've crunched it around since 1968 and it's still going strong. Many of our instructors still prefer to instruct in it. Provided you do in house maintainance on the cheap with club members then your costs are lower. One thing we are finding is the size of your average pilot has grown since 1968 and 40% don't fit in it. We operate alongside Vikings (Grob Acro) and they are a fine trainer although the undercarriage is not as strong as either the K-13 or K-21. |
#29
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Chris Marren wrote:
We also explored the possibility of using the spin kit (tail weights) as supplied with one of our K-21's. We got no-where with this in regards certification, manuals etc. In Switzerland, it's certificated, and there is a weight calculation table. Try to ask AS directly for it and refer to Switzerland. BTW: It spins beautifully with the proper tail weight. Stefan |
#30
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When London Sailplanes were still the Schleicher agents they imported at
least one K21 fitted with the tail weight kit, I flew it with the kit. They also converted one of their machines, EDW, the one which was sold to University College London and later went to Halton, where I believe it is now. You could ask the people at Halton how they find it, or go there to try it yourself. I believe that Caracole Soaring in California use K21s with the tail weight kit for spin training. Both Dunstable and the Midland Club, Long Mynd went to a K21 fleet for training, but retain a K13 used for spin training. W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). Remove "ic" to reply. "Chris Marren" wrote in message ... At my club we still retain a K-13 for spin training as our K-21's are almost impossible to spin. We checked with the BGA some time ago and they confirmed that it is a requirement to undergo full spin training prior to solo. We also explored the possibility of using the spin kit (tail weights) as supplied with one of our K-21's. We got no-where with this in regards certification, manuals etc. However we're getting a DG-1000 and so we will then sell the K-13. It will be sad to see it go; we've crunched it around since 1968 and it's still going strong. Many of our instructors still prefer to instruct in it. Provided you do in house maintenance on the cheap with club members then your costs are lower. One thing we are finding is the size of your average pilot has grown since 1968 and 40% don't fit in it. We operate alongside Vikings (Grob Acro) and they are a fine trainer although the undercarriage is not as strong as either the K-13 or K-21. |
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