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#121
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
In message
, Ken S. Tucker writes I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat. In the same way that the Japanese could have conquered the US in five days in 1941 if they'd only bothered to try? (Land in California, commandeer weapons and transport from the cowardly fleeing populace, race the bad news to Washington, impose Imperial hegemony, declare victory while forcibly recruiting all white females between seven and seventy for "recreational services"?) I think whoever was telling you this, was pulling your leg so hard it's still out of its socket, and they're still telling the story of "some clueless guy called Tucker" who didn't just swallow the hook but took the line, and the sinker, and tried to eat the rod as well. -- He thinks too much, such men are dangerous. Paul J. Adam |
#122
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 17, 6:38*pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote: In message , Ken S. Tucker writes I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat. In the same way that the Japanese could have conquered the US in five days in 1941 if they'd only bothered to try? (Land in California, commandeer weapons and transport from the cowardly fleeing populace, race the bad news to Washington, impose Imperial hegemony, declare victory while forcibly recruiting all white females between seven and seventy for "recreational services"?) I think whoever was telling you this, was pulling your leg so hard it's still out of its socket, and they're still telling the story of "some clueless guy called Tucker" who didn't just swallow the hook but took the line, and the sinker, and tried to eat the rod as well. -- He thinks too much, such men are dangerous. Paul J. Adam Remember the Southern Pacific and Union Pacific ran 40 hour trains from San Francisco and Los Angeles to Chicago, seven days a week. If you could get past all the GIs riding those buggers even in 1941-2 you had to have enough real U.S.A. green to pay for your meals. |
#123
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
In message , Bill Kambic
writes Remember, too, the old saw: Amatuers study tactics; professionals study logistics. There is no way the KM could have protected the sea lift necessary to make any invasion possible. Of course we see these things with the aid of 20/20 hindsight. At the time I suspect there was more "fog of war" involved in decision making. There was a fair amount of realism on the German side: the Kriegsmarine were trying to get out of the operation, or to make sure that if it happened its failure wasn't their fault. The Army leapt at it, then tried to leap back as they realised it was more than just an opposed river crossing. The Luftwaffe is more complex and you wonder how much of their planning and politicking depended on Goering's morphine intake on any given day... -- He thinks too much, such men are dangerous. Paul J. Adam |
#124
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
{snip} I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat. What saved England is Hitler didn't write up an invasion in Mein Kampf, if he had a pencil and added footnotes, Brits would be goose-stepping and the Scots would be wearing underwear. Ken A country can have a big army or a big navy but not both. (Britain is still paying for the Napoleonic Wars when she tried having both.) To invade Britain a country needs both. Germany had a big army but only a medium sized navy. With war in France, Scandinavia and later USSR Germany could not deploy a large number of troops against Britain for long. Germany's air force was not significantly larger than Britain's so it could not be used as an equaliser. The Empire gave Britain a big advantage in man power and resources that could not be bombed. Once the UK had chosen to fight a long war to even draw with Britain Germany would have had to give up its plans to conquer eastern Europe. There is no easy German victory there. Andrew Swallow |
#125
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:39:05 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
wrote: On Mar 17, 4:31*pm, Peter Skelton wrote: On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:27:50 -0700 (PDT), Chris wrote: On Mar 17, 7:38 am, Jim Wilkins wrote: In the presence of U-Boote how would British subs communicate that they were friendly to attacking British destroyers? They wouldn't be able to. However, it is very unlikely that the British destroyers would be worrying that much about U-boats. Their best defense against U-boats would be speed: by moving fast (which they will want to do anyway to avoid all those Luftwaffe planes, to find and bring to battle the KM forces, and even to tip over the invasion barges with their bow waves) they won't give submerged submarines much of a chance to get into position: unless the submarine is already in the correct position they won't be able to engage. The KM invasion forces, on the other hand, will be tied to the 3-4 knot invasion barges, so there will be a lot of slow, tempting targets for the RN submarines. They'll have to surface and use their guns. Not much of the invasion fleet was big enough to torpedo. The RN did not muster subs in or near the channel, they had better use for them elsewhere. Peter Skelton I still say a spread across the opening in the anti-submarine nets as the first tow boat emerges would put a major bend in the German desire to finish the game. Just make an explosive noise somewhere a head of the bulk of the force. That or die in the mine field every base was protected with. Peter Skelton |
#126
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:43:32 -0400, Bill Kambic
wrote: On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:31:00 -0400, Peter Skelton wrote: On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:27:50 -0700 (PDT), Chris wrote: On Mar 17, 7:38*am, Jim Wilkins wrote: In the presence of U-Boote how would British subs communicate that they were friendly to attacking British destroyers? They wouldn't be able to. However, it is very unlikely that the British destroyers would be worrying that much about U-boats. Their best defense against U-boats would be speed: by moving fast (which they will want to do anyway to avoid all those Luftwaffe planes, to find and bring to battle the KM forces, and even to tip over the invasion barges with their bow waves) they won't give submerged submarines much of a chance to get into position: unless the submarine is already in the correct position they won't be able to engage. The KM invasion forces, on the other hand, will be tied to the 3-4 knot invasion barges, so there will be a lot of slow, tempting targets for the RN submarines. They'll have to surface and use their guns. Not much of the invasion fleet was big enough to torpedo. The RN did not muster subs in or near the channel, they had better use for them elsewhere. Peter Skelton Wouldn't it take a particularly stupid admiral to try and use subs as an invasion barge escort? rather Also, while barges were a critical lift, there were also a fair number of larger, coastal trade vessels that would have to be pressed into service to carry the heavy stuff, including supplies of fuel. These would have made fine targets for RN subs. And land the stuff how? The U-Boat force would not be messing around with barges in the Channel. They'd be setting up to intercept the Home Fleet as it came south to "welcome" the invasion force. The Home Fleet was not expected to do much against an invasion. It would arrive after the destruction had been done. ANti-invasion was small ship work. Remember, too, the old saw: Amatuers study tactics; professionals study logistics. There is no way the KM could have protected the sea lift necessary to make any invasion possible. Of course we see these things with the aid of 20/20 hindsight. At the time I suspect there was more "fog of war" involved in decision making. Peter Skelton |
#127
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:30:05 -0700 (PDT), Chris
wrote: On Mar 17, 4:31*pm, Peter Skelton wrote: They'll have to surface and use their guns. Not much of the invasion fleet was big enough to torpedo. The barges + tugs certainly weren't, but there would be a fair number of coasters and the like that would certainly detonate a torpedo if hit. And in a Sealion scenario, I can see putting everything the RN has out there for the fight. No sense in giving the Germans even a 1% chance of success... We know what the RN did. It did not keep a force of subs within anti-invasion range. Peter Skelton |
#128
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:48:13 +0000, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote: In message , Bill Kambic writes Remember, too, the old saw: Amatuers study tactics; professionals study logistics. There is no way the KM could have protected the sea lift necessary to make any invasion possible. Of course we see these things with the aid of 20/20 hindsight. At the time I suspect there was more "fog of war" involved in decision making. There was a fair amount of realism on the German side: the Kriegsmarine were trying to get out of the operation, or to make sure that if it happened its failure wasn't their fault. The Army leapt at it, then tried to leap back as they realised it was more than just an opposed river crossing. The Luftwaffe is more complex and you wonder how much of their planning and politicking depended on Goering's morphine intake on any given day... Indeed. |
#129
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:12:54 -0400, Peter Skelton
wrote: Wouldn't it take a particularly stupid admiral to try and use subs as an invasion barge escort? rather Also, while barges were a critical lift, there were also a fair number of larger, coastal trade vessels that would have to be pressed into service to carry the heavy stuff, including supplies of fuel. These would have made fine targets for RN subs. And land the stuff how? Siezing appropriate channel ports undamged. Paratroopers, likely. Or maybe some form of "commando" force. That would be the plan. Execution of the plan might be problematical. The U-Boat force would not be messing around with barges in the Channel. They'd be setting up to intercept the Home Fleet as it came south to "welcome" the invasion force. The Home Fleet was not expected to do much against an invasion. It would arrive after the destruction had been done. ANti-invasion was small ship work. No, not really. Anti-invasion work is work for whatever you have. If Taffy Three had not shown hyper-aggressivness there would have been a very painful demonstration of just how effective large ships can be in an anti-invasion role. |
#130
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
Bill Kambic wrote:
{snip} No, not really. Anti-invasion work is work for whatever you have. If Taffy Three had not shown hyper-aggressivness there would have been a very painful demonstration of just how effective large ships can be in an anti-invasion role. As in examples such as single British warships taking out entire army regiments without losing a single man? Trench warfare where no-mans land is 30 miles wide. Where German tanks and artillery are not allowed to fire back. Andrew Swallow |
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