New Butterfly Vario

On Feb 8, 5:36*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:
With respect...

So you're arguing that no one has yet died and therefore are suggesting that "we need to have an incident first" before the rule setters will consider changing this (outdated and ridiculous) rule? *OK. *I'll just shut up and wait for that to happen. *No accident has occurred that can be directly correlated to disorientation in IMC in a glider? I doubt that (many incidents have happened over the last 20 years, just nothing fatal yet assuming your facts are correct). *And if you are correct I promise you that one will happen at some point. *Its just a matter of time before it does. *And this thing could prevent that from happening.

Is this the message that we want to send all pilots (students, etc) within the soaring community? *Contest pilots do not use AH's (actually have a rule that you must take it out of the aircraft or disable the function on your Vario, Watch, Computer, etc) because it makes you push the edges and anyone who has one wants to *cheat? *They reason that contest pilots are safer knowing that if you break cloud-base or get trapped on top (whatever)...you'll probably will die? *This way nobody needs them.

It should only about safety, not a contest or competition concern. *The number of honest pilots greatly outweigh the very few who might attempt cheating with the instrument. *Safety should trump the chance that someone may cheat by light years. *This rule clearly is outdated, unenforced, unenforceable and should be a DEEP safety concern. *Half the people who flew contest last year probably had AH's on board. *Good for them! *This rule has not been enforced at all.

This is fairly embarrassing for the contest aspect of our sport in my opinion. *If anyone wishes to put an AH in their glider it should be ENCOURAGED and PRAISED. *Not outlawed. *This logic is completely backwards. *Instead the prime concern is someone may cheat and in this thread we have posts focused on A) don't buy this GREAT VARIO because B) you only want it to cheat and C) I will throw you out of the next contest because you would be cheating by owning it. *Instead the concern is D) how do we disable this vario's functionality so it can be legal when 100% of future electronics and 50% of anything designed within the past 4-5 years already has this functionality.

Wow! *Is it just me? *I have the space in my panel and would love to install one. *I must be a cheater. *How dare I consider it...?

This just made me realize I wasted 20 pages of paper, I printed out
the SSA 2012 Soaring guide to Competition, I was seriously considering
flying in my local sports class contest this summer, not anymore.
Sure, I could unscrew my panel and pull the fuse, but do I really want
to do that? Nope.............whatever fun I might have in a contest I
can have exponentially more of flying at my favorite XC locations.

I'll leave the mid-airs and wing separations to the big guys.

Brad

On 2/8/2012 5:36 PM, Sean Fidler wrote:
With respect...

So you're arguing that no one has yet died and therefore are
suggesting that "we need to have an incident first" before the rule
setters will consider changing this (outdated and ridiculous) rule?
OK. I'll just shut up and wait for that to happen. No accident has
occurred that can be directly correlated to disorientation in IMC in
a glider? I doubt that (many incidents have happened over the last 20
years, just nothing fatal yet assuming your facts are correct). And
if you are correct I promise you that one will happen at some point.
Its just a matter of time before it does. And this thing could
prevent that from happening.

Do you fly in contests?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

What if I have flown contests? What if I havent? Please define for us all in advance what that information does for you Eric.

On Feb 8, 3:06*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
your logger detects it
and it counts as a land out.
I see no reason why the same approach could not be used for any kind
of cloud flying equipment.

This means the scorer has to get every log every day, so you can't
turn in your primary log and forget to turn in the butterfly log. It
means Guy has to reprogram winscore for every new instrument that
comes out.

Well, Butterfly is supposed to be a logger right? So, no need for two
logs. And I guess it could be made to record enabling AH as "engine
noise." From Winscore point of view it would mean "end of flight in
the competition", no software changes necessary.

Mind you, I am not trying to argue. I am not even a competition pilot.
I am just not sure if the technical problems you mention are nearly as
hard as they seem to be.

Bart

So I received this email today. Who else received this email?


12:49 PM (2 minutes ago)

to me

This message may not have been sent by: Learn more Report phishing
The Rules Committee (RC) has become aware of glider instruments that are available, or will soon be available, which will have built-in artificial horizon capabilities. The RC reaffirms the longstanding rule that instruments which can be used to enable flight without reference to the ground are prohibited in competition. The RC policy addressing this issue is posted on the SSA website: www.ssa.org sailplane racing rules & process important reading -- Instruments with Artificial Horizon or T&B Features http://www.ssa.org/files/member/Rest...t%20Policy.pdf

SSA Contest Committee Chair

--------------------------------------------

And what of my watch, my 396, etc?? I think the rules committee might want to consider another path. I would hate for someone to get tossed at the end of the competition because they flew with an instrument that might save their life someday / or an instrument which has AH capability that they were unaware of... I just find this rule silly, but perhaps I underestimate the lengths that some might go to cheat. Wow is this a dark side of contest soaring. What a shame that this is a policy that some want to stand behind. Safety should be the priority. Here...ANTI SAFETY is the goal.

On Feb 10, 12:59*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:
So I received this email today. *Who else received this email?

Read it again. The answer is on the very next line of that email.

Answers to your other questions have already been answered and the
rationale explained.

-T8

I received it as well.

I am concerned because a good number of us use PDA software that may
include new features we cannot easily disable. So we all are suddenly
not legal to fly in contests this year, or we're open to being
protested because we use free software that we don't control?

You're telling me that I have to buy a whole new Flight Computer,
because *that's* the best way to deal with the issue of cloud-flying?
Make competitors spend more money (and arguably have less "safety
equipment") onboard?

What about Smartphones, many of which have gyros and can be used as a
(really bad) AH device? You mean we have to fly without cell-phones
now, or buy a cheap crappy cell-phone for use in our glider?

I've resisted weighing in on this so far, but I'm really galled by
it. Cloud-flying has happened in the distant past, but I've been
involved in competition for the last few years and its been POUNDED
into me that you absolutely don't do it, either in competition or in
casual flying. Its a stupid risk to take and the potential gains are
minimal (i.e. your National Trophy isn't stuffed with a million
dollars and doesn't come with a titanic sponsorship deal; it isn't
worth dying for).

Surely there's a better way to deal with the cloud-flying temptation
than by cutting off a bunch of people at the knees and hobbling their
ability to use tools and equipment that are perfectly legal and
adequate in every other way...

--Noel


On Feb 10, 9:59*am, Sean Fidler wrote:
So I received this email today. *Who else received this email?

The Rules Committee (RC) has become aware of glider instruments that are available, or will soon be available, which will have built-in artificial horizon capabilities. The RC reaffirms the longstanding rule that instruments which can be used to enable flight without reference to the ground are prohibited in competition. The RC policy addressing this issue is posted on the SSA website:www.ssa.org sailplane racing rules & process important reading -- Instruments with Artificial Horizon or T&B Features *http://www.ssa.org/files/member/Rest...t%20Policy.pdf

SSA Contest Committee Chair

On Feb 10, 1:18*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:

I am concerned because a good number of us use PDA software that may
include new features we cannot easily disable. *So we all are suddenly
not legal to fly in contests this year, or we're open to being
protested because we use free software that we don't control?

[...] other good points snipped.

Phones, watches and PDA software cannot be policed, full stop. LK8000
is designed to run off an SD card.

So, practically speaking, they won't be. I don't think anyone would
actually be stupid enough to try flying blind on these "instruments"
intentionally and if you'd like to try having blundered into cloud
unintentionally, well, good luck, you'll need it.

Gyros in the panel are a different story. I can think immediately of
three guys that would have, at one time, jumped at the chance to cloud
fly in a contest if they thought they could get away with it and it
would give an advantage. I think they have mellowed a bit with age
(but in one case -- not so sure!).

Sean -- in my view -- is spinning an army of straw men. Unlike Eric,
I've flown contests for *only* 20 years and I'd echo -- "it's not just
at the bottom of the safety list, it isn't even on the list." It's
easy to stay the f--- out of clouds if you even give a nod to the
FARs. Would I like a turn gyro or AH in my panel -- sure! -- but I
absolutely do not need it for contest flying (we get a lot of wet wave
in the Fall in NH, that's another issue altogether).

If the rules change w.r.t. instruments, I won't complain. But I will
rat you out if I see you flying into or out of a cloud. That's a
promise.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

From the SSA Rules Committee:

US Competition Rules Committee Policy on Instruments Incorporating
the Capability for Flight Without Reference To the Ground
February 8, 2012
The US Rules Committee ("RC") reaffirms the longstanding rule that instruments which can be used to
enable flight without reference to the ground are prohibited in competition.. The following policy
relating to multi-function instruments that provide such functionality as a feature has been adopted
based on consideration of the implications and side effects on contest procedures, scoring software and
the imminent start of the US contest season; and discussions with manufacturers and pilots:
1. Rule 6.6 will remain as is.
6.6
6.6.1
Restricted Equipment
Each sailplane is prohibited from carrying any instrument which:
• Permits flight without reference to the ground.
• Is capable of measuring air motion or temperature at a
distance greater than one wingspan.
2. By waiver, the RC may allow the installation of such a device if the RC determines that the
“artificial horizon” or “turn and bank” capability can be effectively and verifiably disabled for the
period of the competition.
3. To obtain a waiver a competitor must:
a. Ensure that the device in the configuration to be used is submitted to the RC for
inspection well before the intended use (at least one month). This must also include a
statement of compliance from the manufacturer.
b. Request and obtain the waiver from the RC
4. The RC will use the following criteria in determining whether a specific device is eligible for
waiver:
a. It must be obvious to the casual observer that the forbidden capabilities are disabled or
entirely absent when the device powers up and when the disablement will expire.
b. It must not be possible to re-enable the forbidden capabilities during the period of
competition. Examples of re-enablement scenarios would include:
i. Reloading firmware
ii. Changing device settings
iii. Performing any kind of hardware reset (e.g. removing backup battery)
5. The procedure for using the device is expected to be:
a. The competitor with a waiver disables the capability at the beginning of the contest
b. The competitor demonstrates to an appropriate contest official (e.g. CD, scorer) that the
disabling has been done.
c. After 14 days the disablement expires (i.e. daily checking of IGC logs is not an acceptable
process)
end

To sum all of this up, as I am bored of the subject and know where old political power plays will go (as we sit today)...

The SSA has made the decision to outlaw T&B because they are more concerned with the chance that someone would be able to cheat with instrument than the chance that some might die without it.

I am estimating that very few would try to cheat, and that very few (but many more than would try cheating) might benefit from the T&B in the next few years. The SSA rule says we hope that person comes out of the bottom of that cloud in pieces, and screw you...cheater! ;-)

A policy that allows the T&B for everyone (especially now that it can and will be easily included in modern instruments) would be a win for safety and logic (IMO). It is time to change this rule.

If people want to cheat, fine. Its a game, for fun...right?

But why limit a major safety option for a sport in which most pilots are flying near clouds all the time?

This unenforced (and unenforcable) rule is going to become more and more of a challenge to enforce.

I do race contests...and have never needed a T&B yet. But I am sure the day will come... So I am installing one. Its that simple for me.