Tailwheel endorsement

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

We run 172s, an R182 and a Citabria. Most of the ab initios start
in the 172 and get the tailwheel training after they've done the
Private in the 172.

I wonder if I stumbled across the only airport in the world that still
does its primary training in taildraggers?

There are others, thank goodness.


Hampton Airport 7B3 in New Hampshire generally has two Cubs on the
line (this year just one). Everyone who learns to fly at 7B3 solos
first in the Cub. (Well, I suppose if somebody insisted on starting
out in one of the 172s, he could find an instructor to oblige him.)

The usual drill is then to segue into the 172 for high-faluting stuff
like radio work, ATC, and night landings. Personally, I was so
addicted to the Cub that I opted for a recreational license so I
wouldn't have to move, and at least one other pilot has followed me in
that decision. (Not the best one I ever made, perhaps.)



all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

In article , Robert M.
Gary wrote:

The D is very nice in that you can land it by looking out over the
cowl (like in a 172), you don't need to hang your head around the side
of the plane and look around the side of the cowl.

I certainly hope you are not teaching your students to look to one side
when full stall/three point landing a taildragger.

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:34:52 GMT, "Henry Bibb"
wrote:

From what I understand, New London (W90) in Virginia, does it
that way, too. Except they use a J-4.

Thanks for the pointer. I'll add it to my list of Cub-friendly
airports www.pipercubforum.com/friendly.htm

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

First period was three point touch and go and full stop on hard
surface with light winds down the R/W. Included systems
instruction.

2nd flight was three point landings on hard surface with 20 mph cross
wind and review of systems.

3rd flight was three point on gravel an dirt runway and review of
systems.

Signed off.

Big John,

Sounds like you forgot the wheel landings.

FAR 61.31(i)(1)(ii) requires it unless recommended against by the
manufacturer.

Or perhaps the last tailwheel checkout you gave fell under FAR 61.31(i)(2)

After several thousand hours of tailwheel time and several more under
'instruction given', I've seen some really sharp people show profiecncy in a
very short time. But even the best of them could not demonstrate normal and
crosswind takeoffs and landings, wheel landings and go-around procedures in
the times given by some of the posters on this board.

I'm always amazed at how many tailwheel pilots I've met who say they never
did wheel landings during their training. And of the vast majority who did
do them say, "but we only did one or two".

IMHO, beyond just what's required by the FAA, I feel we do a disservice to
ourselves and mostly to our tailwheel students if we don't do the best we
can at trying to 'mix things up' for them. They need to know, and feel what
it's like to land without enough right rudder, or what happens when it
starts to swerve on them, or applying to much brake to soon, or using
differential braking improperly, etc...

If the student never experiences these things with us on board, what are
their chances of a good out come when it happens in real life?

PJ

--
===============
Reply to:
pj at offairport dot com
===============
Here's to the duck that swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together. J.J.W.
=========================================


"Big John" wrote in message
...
John

Last time I gave a TW check out.

Pilot had about 200 hours in 172 size A/C.

Boss had a 180 and said he coud fly if got check out.

First period was three point touch and go and full stop on hard
surface with light winds down the R/W. Included systems
instruction.

2nd flight was three point landings on hard surface with 20 mph cross
wind and review of systems.

3rd flight was three point on gravel an dirt runway and review of
systems.

Signed off.

Next week he borrow the bird from boss and took to Big Bend Park area
in south Texas, landing on a very primitative (out back) strip.

Only shot a couple of wheel landings so he could say he had shot
some.

Big John


On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 21:52:31 -0800, "John Harper"
wrote:

It took me far too long to do it, because I had an instructor who was
only
available for one week a month and whose technique, I realised late in
the game, was not really right for me. I'm writing the full story for my
web
page. So it took me over 20 hours. A more reasonable time would probably
be about 10 hours. IIRC I was paying about $70/hr wet for the Citabria,
plus the instructor who was about $35 until I started working with my
acro instructor who is rather more expensive (and a lot better).

John

"pix" wrote in message
. ..
How much an hour did you pay for the endorsement, John? And how many
hours
did it take you to do?

cheers...pix
who is thinking of getting a TW End.
"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1070762767.667218@sj-nntpcache-3...
Well, I finally got my tailwheel endorsement this week, and today was
my
first solo tailwheel flight. I took the Decathlon, since I need to
practice
my landings. With my previous instrcutor I was struggling, in the
Citabria,
but my acro instructor took care of me and within three lessons I did
ten
good wheel-landings straight off, so I guess he must be doing
something
right.

The Decathlon is a real fun plane to fly. It's great for acro, much
better
than the Grob I've been flying until recently. Landing is a bit of a
challenge, because the symmetrical wing means that lift drops off
very
quickly at lower speeds. It hardly floats at all, in fact if you
don't
keep
speed up on final it drops in like a brick.

Solo, it has pretty impressive performance. The take off run is over
before
you know it. On LVK's 5000' runway, I just about managed to get it to
pattern altitude before the opposite threshold, using a Vx (58 mph)
climb.

It's fun. It has been a struggle at times, especially when I was
trying
to
conquer wheel landings with my first instructor. But in the end it's
been
worth it.

John

In article , Cub Driver
wrote:

From what I understand, New London (W90) in Virginia, does it
that way, too. Except they use a J-4.

Thanks for the pointer. I'll add it to my list of Cub-friendly
airports www.pipercubforum.com/friendly.htm

Dan, you can also add Red Stewart Airfield (40I), Waynesville Ohio.
Cubs, Champs, Stearman.

Pix... the better question is,
"What are the minimum insurance requirements?"

Ridiculous, that's what they are!

A friend of mine, a CFII with lots of time in trikes, bought a Cessna
140 a couple of years ago.

His insurance co. requried 20 (twenty) hours of dual before they'd
insure him.

In the old days, students cusomarily soloed a J-3 Cub in 8 hours or
less!

And in 1949, when I arrived at Pensacola, the Navy was putting kids
who had never been in an airplane in an SNJ, and soloing them in 12
hours.

vince norris

PJ

Re-read my original post. You clipped in your post the wheel comment I
made originally.

Comment on landings.

Wheel landings.

Two basic types of wheel landings.

1. High airspeed on final and when over the runway and flared stick it
on the ground with lots of forward stick. This puts the prop near the
ground and the tail way up in the air.

If you have a short R/W (out back) there is a good chance it is not
long enough to make that kind of a wheel landing.

As bird slows down you have to transition from the main gear to a
three point attitude to get the tail wheel on the ground and with a
cross wind this takes proficiency that a flight once or twice a month
with one landing each will not give even if both are wheel landings..

2. Normal final air speed and normal flare and hold bird off in a tail
low (not three point ) attitude . As main gear touches release the
back pressure on stick (maybe add a 'little' forward stick) and roll
down the R/W on main gear using rudder for directional control.

Same problems transitioning from main wheels to three point.

Three point landing.

Three point touch down at minimum speed (bird stalled). Won't bounce
back in air like a wheel landing can do if forward stick is not
applied correctly.

During and after three point touch down you hold the stick full back
all the time which holds the tail wheel firmly on the ground and helps
prevent ground loops (that happen oftener in wheel landings).

I've clipped some of my text but believe you will get the idea of my
years of tail wheel flying in all kinds of WX, R/W and aircraft.

errata

If you have floats do you try to stick the floats on or do you try to
touch down in a tail low attitude?

My '51 Group had one Sq who made all wheel landings. My Sq made three
point. We had half the landing accidents the other Sq had.

I wonder if any of the AK jocks are reading this post and can comment
on wheel landings in AK?

Big John


On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:51:08 -0800, "PJ" pj at off airport dot com
wrote:

First period was three point touch and go and full stop on hard
surface with light winds down the R/W. Included systems
instruction.

2nd flight was three point landings on hard surface with 20 mph cross
wind and review of systems.

3rd flight was three point on gravel an dirt runway and review of
systems.

Signed off.

Big John,

Sounds like you forgot the wheel landings.

FAR 61.31(i)(1)(ii) requires it unless recommended against by the
manufacturer.

Or perhaps the last tailwheel checkout you gave fell under FAR 61.31(i)(2)

After several thousand hours of tailwheel time and several more under
'instruction given', I've seen some really sharp people show profiecncy in a
very short time. But even the best of them could not demonstrate normal and
crosswind takeoffs and landings, wheel landings and go-around procedures in
the times given by some of the posters on this board.

I'm always amazed at how many tailwheel pilots I've met who say they never
did wheel landings during their training. And of the vast majority who did
do them say, "but we only did one or two".

IMHO, beyond just what's required by the FAA, I feel we do a disservice to
ourselves and mostly to our tailwheel students if we don't do the best we
can at trying to 'mix things up' for them. They need to know, and feel what
it's like to land without enough right rudder, or what happens when it
starts to swerve on them, or applying to much brake to soon, or using
differential braking improperly, etc...

If the student never experiences these things with us on board, what are
their chances of a good out come when it happens in real life?

PJ

EDR

How do you think we landed the PT-19, T-6, P-51, etc.,etc.? You went
blind as soon as you pulled nose up on landing.

Big John

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 21:14:39 GMT, EDR wrote:

In article , Robert M.
Gary wrote:

The D is very nice in that you can land it by looking out over the
cowl (like in a 172), you don't need to hang your head around the side
of the plane and look around the side of the cowl.

I certainly hope you are not teaching your students to look to one side
when full stall/three point landing a taildragger.

EDR wrote in message ...
In article , Robert M.
Gary wrote:

The D is very nice in that you can land it by looking out over the
cowl (like in a 172), you don't need to hang your head around the side
of the plane and look around the side of the cowl.

I certainly hope you are not teaching your students to look to one side
when full stall/three point landing a taildragger.

I find that being able to see the ground is helpful. Have you ever
flown a J-3, Stearman, etc...?

-Robert

Hi Big John,

Please understand, this is not an attack on your abilities as a tailwheel
pilot. I merely observed something in your post that I've seen many times
before so I used it to bring up a few points about 'tailwheel training'.

You said;


You clipped in your post the wheel comment I made originally.


If I'm interpreting your message correctly, I suppose this was in reference
to the fact that you said,


"Next week he borrow the bird from boss and took to Big Bend Park area in
south Texas, landing on a very primitative (out back) strip. Only shot a
couple of wheel landings so he could say he had shot some."


The points I were making in my original post we

#1 He was (according to your message) signed off prior to ever having done
any wheel landings.
#2 When he finally did do wheel landings, he only did two. (Just to say, "he
had shot some".)
#3 Simply satisfying the FAR is just the bare minimum required for sign off.

These points substantiate my views posted previously, about so many
tailwheel pilots being signed off having no or very little training in wheel
landings. The FAR's say they have to 'show proficiency' prior to the
endorsement.

As for the float flying, you never push the stick/yoke forward while
landing. I'm sure you know that and I'm not exactly sure what your point was
with that comment. And if you compare it to .landing a tailwheel, it's more
like doing a wheel as opposed to a 3 point landing.

As for the Alaska pilots, I can only speak from my own personal experience.
I fly Part 135 in Alaska, mostly 185's and Beaver's. I Instruct for fun (on
the side - when I'm in the mood) in mostly Super Cub's, Citabria's and
140's, sometimes the 185. I personally do wheel landings most of the time.
This includes landings on snow, glaciers, ridges, river bars and in and out
of short 600 foot strips, what ever. It's really very rare that I'll do a 3
point landing. It seems that 'most' pilots that I work with up here also do
wheel landings most of the time. But that's not to say that there's not
people who do mostly 3 point landings. It's just my experience that with my
flying and watching all the other pilots I see in my area, that the wheel
landings are the most often used.

There are obvious advantages and disadvantages of both types of landings,
and we could argue them all day long. Personally, I like wheel landings,
they work for me and I've never had and accident doing them.

If you ever get up to Alaska, drop me a note and I'll show you around.
PJ

===============
Reply to:
pj at offairport dot com
===============
Here's to the duck that swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together. J.J.W.
=========================================


"Big John" wrote in message
...
PJ

Re-read my original post. You clipped in your post the wheel comment I
made originally.

Comment on landings.

Wheel landings.

Two basic types of wheel landings.

1. High airspeed on final and when over the runway and flared stick it
on the ground with lots of forward stick. This puts the prop near the
ground and the tail way up in the air.

If you have a short R/W (out back) there is a good chance it is not
long enough to make that kind of a wheel landing.

As bird slows down you have to transition from the main gear to a
three point attitude to get the tail wheel on the ground and with a
cross wind this takes proficiency that a flight once or twice a month
with one landing each will not give even if both are wheel landings..

2. Normal final air speed and normal flare and hold bird off in a tail
low (not three point ) attitude . As main gear touches release the
back pressure on stick (maybe add a 'little' forward stick) and roll
down the R/W on main gear using rudder for directional control.

Same problems transitioning from main wheels to three point.

Three point landing.

Three point touch down at minimum speed (bird stalled). Won't bounce
back in air like a wheel landing can do if forward stick is not
applied correctly.

During and after three point touch down you hold the stick full back
all the time which holds the tail wheel firmly on the ground and helps
prevent ground loops (that happen oftener in wheel landings).

I've clipped some of my text but believe you will get the idea of my
years of tail wheel flying in all kinds of WX, R/W and aircraft.

errata

If you have floats do you try to stick the floats on or do you try to
touch down in a tail low attitude?

My '51 Group had one Sq who made all wheel landings. My Sq made three
point. We had half the landing accidents the other Sq had.

I wonder if any of the AK jocks are reading this post and can comment
on wheel landings in AK?

Big John


On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:51:08 -0800, "PJ" pj at off airport dot com
wrote:

First period was three point touch and go and full stop on hard
surface with light winds down the R/W. Included systems
instruction.

2nd flight was three point landings on hard surface with 20 mph cross
wind and review of systems.

3rd flight was three point on gravel an dirt runway and review of
systems.

Signed off.

Big John,

Sounds like you forgot the wheel landings.

FAR 61.31(i)(1)(ii) requires it unless recommended against by the
manufacturer.

Or perhaps the last tailwheel checkout you gave fell under FAR
61.31(i)(2)

After several thousand hours of tailwheel time and several more under
'instruction given', I've seen some really sharp people show profiecncy
in a
very short time. But even the best of them could not demonstrate normal
and
crosswind takeoffs and landings, wheel landings and go-around procedures
in
the times given by some of the posters on this board.

I'm always amazed at how many tailwheel pilots I've met who say they
never
did wheel landings during their training. And of the vast majority who
did
do them say, "but we only did one or two".

IMHO, beyond just what's required by the FAA, I feel we do a disservice
to
ourselves and mostly to our tailwheel students if we don't do the best we
can at trying to 'mix things up' for them. They need to know, and feel
what
it's like to land without enough right rudder, or what happens when it
starts to swerve on them, or applying to much brake to soon, or using
differential braking improperly, etc...

If the student never experiences these things with us on board, what are
their chances of a good out come when it happens in real life?

PJ