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#21
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"Cub Driver" wrote in message ... We run 172s, an R182 and a Citabria. Most of the ab initios start in the 172 and get the tailwheel training after they've done the Private in the 172. I wonder if I stumbled across the only airport in the world that still does its primary training in taildraggers? There are others, thank goodness. Hampton Airport 7B3 in New Hampshire generally has two Cubs on the line (this year just one). Everyone who learns to fly at 7B3 solos first in the Cub. (Well, I suppose if somebody insisted on starting out in one of the 172s, he could find an instructor to oblige him.) The usual drill is then to segue into the 172 for high-faluting stuff like radio work, ATC, and night landings. Personally, I was so addicted to the Cub that I opted for a recreational license so I wouldn't have to move, and at least one other pilot has followed me in that decision. (Not the best one I ever made, perhaps.) all the best -- Dan Ford email: see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com |
#22
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In article , Robert M.
Gary wrote: The D is very nice in that you can land it by looking out over the cowl (like in a 172), you don't need to hang your head around the side of the plane and look around the side of the cowl. I certainly hope you are not teaching your students to look to one side when full stall/three point landing a taildragger. |
#23
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On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:34:52 GMT, "Henry Bibb"
wrote: From what I understand, New London (W90) in Virginia, does it that way, too. Except they use a J-4. Thanks for the pointer. I'll add it to my list of Cub-friendly airports www.pipercubforum.com/friendly.htm all the best -- Dan Ford email: see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com |
#24
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First period was three point touch and go and full stop on hard
surface with light winds down the R/W. Included systems instruction. 2nd flight was three point landings on hard surface with 20 mph cross wind and review of systems. 3rd flight was three point on gravel an dirt runway and review of systems. Signed off. Big John, Sounds like you forgot the wheel landings. FAR 61.31(i)(1)(ii) requires it unless recommended against by the manufacturer. Or perhaps the last tailwheel checkout you gave fell under FAR 61.31(i)(2) After several thousand hours of tailwheel time and several more under 'instruction given', I've seen some really sharp people show profiecncy in a very short time. But even the best of them could not demonstrate normal and crosswind takeoffs and landings, wheel landings and go-around procedures in the times given by some of the posters on this board. I'm always amazed at how many tailwheel pilots I've met who say they never did wheel landings during their training. And of the vast majority who did do them say, "but we only did one or two". IMHO, beyond just what's required by the FAA, I feel we do a disservice to ourselves and mostly to our tailwheel students if we don't do the best we can at trying to 'mix things up' for them. They need to know, and feel what it's like to land without enough right rudder, or what happens when it starts to swerve on them, or applying to much brake to soon, or using differential braking improperly, etc... If the student never experiences these things with us on board, what are their chances of a good out come when it happens in real life? PJ -- =============== Reply to: pj at offairport dot com =============== Here's to the duck that swam a lake and never lost a feather, May sometime another year, we all be back together. J.J.W. ========================================= "Big John" wrote in message ... John Last time I gave a TW check out. Pilot had about 200 hours in 172 size A/C. Boss had a 180 and said he coud fly if got check out. First period was three point touch and go and full stop on hard surface with light winds down the R/W. Included systems instruction. 2nd flight was three point landings on hard surface with 20 mph cross wind and review of systems. 3rd flight was three point on gravel an dirt runway and review of systems. Signed off. Next week he borrow the bird from boss and took to Big Bend Park area in south Texas, landing on a very primitative (out back) strip. Only shot a couple of wheel landings so he could say he had shot some. Big John On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 21:52:31 -0800, "John Harper" wrote: It took me far too long to do it, because I had an instructor who was only available for one week a month and whose technique, I realised late in the game, was not really right for me. I'm writing the full story for my web page. So it took me over 20 hours. A more reasonable time would probably be about 10 hours. IIRC I was paying about $70/hr wet for the Citabria, plus the instructor who was about $35 until I started working with my acro instructor who is rather more expensive (and a lot better). John "pix" wrote in message . .. How much an hour did you pay for the endorsement, John? And how many hours did it take you to do? cheers...pix who is thinking of getting a TW End. "John Harper" wrote in message news:1070762767.667218@sj-nntpcache-3... Well, I finally got my tailwheel endorsement this week, and today was my first solo tailwheel flight. I took the Decathlon, since I need to practice my landings. With my previous instrcutor I was struggling, in the Citabria, but my acro instructor took care of me and within three lessons I did ten good wheel-landings straight off, so I guess he must be doing something right. The Decathlon is a real fun plane to fly. It's great for acro, much better than the Grob I've been flying until recently. Landing is a bit of a challenge, because the symmetrical wing means that lift drops off very quickly at lower speeds. It hardly floats at all, in fact if you don't keep speed up on final it drops in like a brick. Solo, it has pretty impressive performance. The take off run is over before you know it. On LVK's 5000' runway, I just about managed to get it to pattern altitude before the opposite threshold, using a Vx (58 mph) climb. It's fun. It has been a struggle at times, especially when I was trying to conquer wheel landings with my first instructor. But in the end it's been worth it. John |
#25
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In article , Cub Driver
wrote: From what I understand, New London (W90) in Virginia, does it that way, too. Except they use a J-4. Thanks for the pointer. I'll add it to my list of Cub-friendly airports www.pipercubforum.com/friendly.htm Dan, you can also add Red Stewart Airfield (40I), Waynesville Ohio. Cubs, Champs, Stearman. |
#26
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Pix... the better question is,
"What are the minimum insurance requirements?" Ridiculous, that's what they are! A friend of mine, a CFII with lots of time in trikes, bought a Cessna 140 a couple of years ago. His insurance co. requried 20 (twenty) hours of dual before they'd insure him. In the old days, students cusomarily soloed a J-3 Cub in 8 hours or less! And in 1949, when I arrived at Pensacola, the Navy was putting kids who had never been in an airplane in an SNJ, and soloing them in 12 hours. vince norris |
#27
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PJ
Re-read my original post. You clipped in your post the wheel comment I made originally. Comment on landings. Wheel landings. Two basic types of wheel landings. 1. High airspeed on final and when over the runway and flared stick it on the ground with lots of forward stick. This puts the prop near the ground and the tail way up in the air. If you have a short R/W (out back) there is a good chance it is not long enough to make that kind of a wheel landing. As bird slows down you have to transition from the main gear to a three point attitude to get the tail wheel on the ground and with a cross wind this takes proficiency that a flight once or twice a month with one landing each will not give even if both are wheel landings.. 2. Normal final air speed and normal flare and hold bird off in a tail low (not three point ) attitude . As main gear touches release the back pressure on stick (maybe add a 'little' forward stick) and roll down the R/W on main gear using rudder for directional control. Same problems transitioning from main wheels to three point. Three point landing. Three point touch down at minimum speed (bird stalled). Won't bounce back in air like a wheel landing can do if forward stick is not applied correctly. During and after three point touch down you hold the stick full back all the time which holds the tail wheel firmly on the ground and helps prevent ground loops (that happen oftener in wheel landings). I've clipped some of my text but believe you will get the idea of my years of tail wheel flying in all kinds of WX, R/W and aircraft. errata If you have floats do you try to stick the floats on or do you try to touch down in a tail low attitude? My '51 Group had one Sq who made all wheel landings. My Sq made three point. We had half the landing accidents the other Sq had. I wonder if any of the AK jocks are reading this post and can comment on wheel landings in AK? Big John On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:51:08 -0800, "PJ" pj at off airport dot com wrote: First period was three point touch and go and full stop on hard surface with light winds down the R/W. Included systems instruction. 2nd flight was three point landings on hard surface with 20 mph cross wind and review of systems. 3rd flight was three point on gravel an dirt runway and review of systems. Signed off. Big John, Sounds like you forgot the wheel landings. FAR 61.31(i)(1)(ii) requires it unless recommended against by the manufacturer. Or perhaps the last tailwheel checkout you gave fell under FAR 61.31(i)(2) After several thousand hours of tailwheel time and several more under 'instruction given', I've seen some really sharp people show profiecncy in a very short time. But even the best of them could not demonstrate normal and crosswind takeoffs and landings, wheel landings and go-around procedures in the times given by some of the posters on this board. I'm always amazed at how many tailwheel pilots I've met who say they never did wheel landings during their training. And of the vast majority who did do them say, "but we only did one or two". IMHO, beyond just what's required by the FAA, I feel we do a disservice to ourselves and mostly to our tailwheel students if we don't do the best we can at trying to 'mix things up' for them. They need to know, and feel what it's like to land without enough right rudder, or what happens when it starts to swerve on them, or applying to much brake to soon, or using differential braking improperly, etc... If the student never experiences these things with us on board, what are their chances of a good out come when it happens in real life? PJ |
#28
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EDR
How do you think we landed the PT-19, T-6, P-51, etc.,etc.? You went blind as soon as you pulled nose up on landing. Big John On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 21:14:39 GMT, EDR wrote: In article , Robert M. Gary wrote: The D is very nice in that you can land it by looking out over the cowl (like in a 172), you don't need to hang your head around the side of the plane and look around the side of the cowl. I certainly hope you are not teaching your students to look to one side when full stall/three point landing a taildragger. |
#29
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EDR wrote in message ...
In article , Robert M. Gary wrote: The D is very nice in that you can land it by looking out over the cowl (like in a 172), you don't need to hang your head around the side of the plane and look around the side of the cowl. I certainly hope you are not teaching your students to look to one side when full stall/three point landing a taildragger. I find that being able to see the ground is helpful. Have you ever flown a J-3, Stearman, etc...? -Robert |
#30
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Hi Big John,
Please understand, this is not an attack on your abilities as a tailwheel pilot. I merely observed something in your post that I've seen many times before so I used it to bring up a few points about 'tailwheel training'. You said; You clipped in your post the wheel comment I made originally. If I'm interpreting your message correctly, I suppose this was in reference to the fact that you said, "Next week he borrow the bird from boss and took to Big Bend Park area in south Texas, landing on a very primitative (out back) strip. Only shot a couple of wheel landings so he could say he had shot some." The points I were making in my original post we #1 He was (according to your message) signed off prior to ever having done any wheel landings. #2 When he finally did do wheel landings, he only did two. (Just to say, "he had shot some".) #3 Simply satisfying the FAR is just the bare minimum required for sign off. These points substantiate my views posted previously, about so many tailwheel pilots being signed off having no or very little training in wheel landings. The FAR's say they have to 'show proficiency' prior to the endorsement. As for the float flying, you never push the stick/yoke forward while landing. I'm sure you know that and I'm not exactly sure what your point was with that comment. And if you compare it to .landing a tailwheel, it's more like doing a wheel as opposed to a 3 point landing. As for the Alaska pilots, I can only speak from my own personal experience. I fly Part 135 in Alaska, mostly 185's and Beaver's. I Instruct for fun (on the side - when I'm in the mood) in mostly Super Cub's, Citabria's and 140's, sometimes the 185. I personally do wheel landings most of the time. This includes landings on snow, glaciers, ridges, river bars and in and out of short 600 foot strips, what ever. It's really very rare that I'll do a 3 point landing. It seems that 'most' pilots that I work with up here also do wheel landings most of the time. But that's not to say that there's not people who do mostly 3 point landings. It's just my experience that with my flying and watching all the other pilots I see in my area, that the wheel landings are the most often used. There are obvious advantages and disadvantages of both types of landings, and we could argue them all day long. Personally, I like wheel landings, they work for me and I've never had and accident doing them. If you ever get up to Alaska, drop me a note and I'll show you around. PJ =============== Reply to: pj at offairport dot com =============== Here's to the duck that swam a lake and never lost a feather, May sometime another year, we all be back together. J.J.W. ========================================= "Big John" wrote in message ... PJ Re-read my original post. You clipped in your post the wheel comment I made originally. Comment on landings. Wheel landings. Two basic types of wheel landings. 1. High airspeed on final and when over the runway and flared stick it on the ground with lots of forward stick. This puts the prop near the ground and the tail way up in the air. If you have a short R/W (out back) there is a good chance it is not long enough to make that kind of a wheel landing. As bird slows down you have to transition from the main gear to a three point attitude to get the tail wheel on the ground and with a cross wind this takes proficiency that a flight once or twice a month with one landing each will not give even if both are wheel landings.. 2. Normal final air speed and normal flare and hold bird off in a tail low (not three point ) attitude . As main gear touches release the back pressure on stick (maybe add a 'little' forward stick) and roll down the R/W on main gear using rudder for directional control. Same problems transitioning from main wheels to three point. Three point landing. Three point touch down at minimum speed (bird stalled). Won't bounce back in air like a wheel landing can do if forward stick is not applied correctly. During and after three point touch down you hold the stick full back all the time which holds the tail wheel firmly on the ground and helps prevent ground loops (that happen oftener in wheel landings). I've clipped some of my text but believe you will get the idea of my years of tail wheel flying in all kinds of WX, R/W and aircraft. errata If you have floats do you try to stick the floats on or do you try to touch down in a tail low attitude? My '51 Group had one Sq who made all wheel landings. My Sq made three point. We had half the landing accidents the other Sq had. I wonder if any of the AK jocks are reading this post and can comment on wheel landings in AK? Big John On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:51:08 -0800, "PJ" pj at off airport dot com wrote: First period was three point touch and go and full stop on hard surface with light winds down the R/W. Included systems instruction. 2nd flight was three point landings on hard surface with 20 mph cross wind and review of systems. 3rd flight was three point on gravel an dirt runway and review of systems. Signed off. Big John, Sounds like you forgot the wheel landings. FAR 61.31(i)(1)(ii) requires it unless recommended against by the manufacturer. Or perhaps the last tailwheel checkout you gave fell under FAR 61.31(i)(2) After several thousand hours of tailwheel time and several more under 'instruction given', I've seen some really sharp people show profiecncy in a very short time. But even the best of them could not demonstrate normal and crosswind takeoffs and landings, wheel landings and go-around procedures in the times given by some of the posters on this board. I'm always amazed at how many tailwheel pilots I've met who say they never did wheel landings during their training. And of the vast majority who did do them say, "but we only did one or two". IMHO, beyond just what's required by the FAA, I feel we do a disservice to ourselves and mostly to our tailwheel students if we don't do the best we can at trying to 'mix things up' for them. They need to know, and feel what it's like to land without enough right rudder, or what happens when it starts to swerve on them, or applying to much brake to soon, or using differential braking improperly, etc... If the student never experiences these things with us on board, what are their chances of a good out come when it happens in real life? PJ |
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