What do you do in the real world?

In article ,
(Frank Ch. Eigler) wrote:

Here is another question - how would you navigate to the airport,
unless on an IAP? When would you ever use the airport as a fix and
not the destination?

When one files flight plans lazily.

For the record, I filed ROM-AVE-LHS-direct. (In my entire IFR career I
have only once received a clearance that was simply "as filed" so I
often wonder why I bother.)

Our ex-ATC friend at avweb
complains about this regularly. One is supposed to include an
approach facility at the end of the route.

Huh? Are you sure you meant "approach facility"?

rg

In article , Tim
wrote:

And those of us without that magical device?

You would not have been able to navigate direct from SNS to KVNY (or any
of its IAFs) so this whole discussion would have been moot.

rg

In article , Tim
wrote:

Ron Garret wrote:
In article , Tim
wrote:


The OP was confused about what to do at a clearance limit - regardless
^^^^^^^^^
of radio contact.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Not so. My original question was: "what should I have done if I'd been
in IMC and lost comm before they changed my routing?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is the fourth or fifth time you've incorrectly put words in my
mouth. What is your problem?

rg
Are you ****ing kidding me?

No. Please re-read the exchange and pay particular attention to the
highlighted passages.

rg

In article , Tim
wrote:


Yes, I understand that. And they gave you that clearance limit because
that is what you requested from them - when you filed. That is the end
of your flight and they gave you a clearance to there. It is not a
clearance to hold there is it? Because what you are arguing is that you
really only have a clearance to circle the airport every time you get
a clearance that starts with "cleared to xxx airport" and ends in
"...direct."


No, that is not what I am arguing. I have never said any such thing
(because that's clearly ridiculous).

You are. You state that you are going to your clearance limit - which
is the airport, THEN, you have to go somewhere else then back to the
airport which was your clearance limit.

That is not the same thing as circling the airport, which is what you
said.

I draw your attention to FAR 91.181(b) and 91.185(c)(3)(ii) which seem
to me to support my position that if your clearance is direct to an
airport and you lose comm in IMC you are supposed to fly to (i.e. over)
the airport first, THEN to an IAF, then land.

We both seem to agree that this would be a stupid thing to do. So could
you please either 1) cite the reg that says that a direct clearance to
an airport is in fact a direct clearance to some unspecified IAF for
that airport or 2) admit that the procedure that we both agree would be
the prudent course of action in fact violates the regs?

rg

Ron,

what should I have done if I'd been in IMC and lost comm
before they changed my routing?


Never, ever accept a vector without a reason for it. If they don't give
it (which ATC should, per the regs), ask. It can be "for the ILS", "for
traffic", "for spacing", whatever.

In any case, since you know the reason, in case of lost comm, work
around that reason back to your original clearance.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Tim,

Do you always argue with people when they give you answers after you
have insulted them, told them don;t know the answer and then actually
get a correct response?


Uhm, that's his SOP. It's pretty much all he does here.

But you knew that going in ;-)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Ron,

"The minimum IFR altitude is not
easily determined."


Yes, but don't the regs elsewhere say that on off-airway routings, the
pilot is responsible for it?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Tim,

If you are saying that an inop radio is an emergency then I would
question your judgment as a pilot. If the pilot thinks it is an
emergency, then by all means, "declare" one and treat it as such.


And if it were an emergency, why are there different transponder codes
for emergency and lost comm.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Roger wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:03:57 -0800, Ron Garret
wrote:


Last night I flew from SJC to VNY. To my astonishment I was cleared
vectors to SNS, then direct VNY (despite having filed a more standard
routing) at 9000 feet. I knew perfectly well that the routing was going
to change because I've done that route a zillion times, and indeed, near
Bakersfield they switched me over to the standard LHS, LYNXX8 arrival,
followed by vectors to the ILS RWY 16R.

My question is: what should I have done if I'd been in IMC and lost comm
before they changed my routing? By the book I should have continued to
fly my clearance, which would have run me into a mountain around GMN, so
that's probably not the right answer. Viable possibilities seem to
include:


There's only one. You fly it as last cleared.
You arrive at the expected time as the expected place.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Radio failure is an emergency. You fly where ever you need to in order
to safely get on the ground. ATC will sort it out and keep other
aircraft out of your way.

Ray Andraka wrote:
Roger wrote:

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:03:57 -0800, Ron Garret
wrote:


Last night I flew from SJC to VNY. To my astonishment I was cleared
vectors to SNS, then direct VNY (despite having filed a more standard
routing) at 9000 feet. I knew perfectly well that the routing was
going to change because I've done that route a zillion times, and
indeed, near Bakersfield they switched me over to the standard LHS,
LYNXX8 arrival, followed by vectors to the ILS RWY 16R.

My question is: what should I have done if I'd been in IMC and lost
comm before they changed my routing? By the book I should have
continued to fly my clearance, which would have run me into a
mountain around GMN, so that's probably not the right answer. Viable
possibilities seem to include:



There's only one. You fly it as last cleared.
You arrive at the expected time as the expected place.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Radio failure is an emergency. You fly where ever you need to in order
to safely get on the ground. ATC will sort it out and keep other
aircraft out of your way.


So any time a piper cub flies it is an emergency?

So you can fly anywhere you want and atc is supposed to guess where you
are going or magically know whom to keep away from your unknown
position? They cancel and stop all flights while you fly wherever you want?

Does not sound good to me.