FAA

"mm" wrote in message ...
More explicitly, an Instrument Rating is required for the pilot.



And maybe less explicitly, the glider must be certified for IFR flight. Some
gliders say VFR only in the POH. As others mentioned, additional
instrumentation is required, two gyros - - an artificial horizon, turn
coordinator (or needle and ball), transponder and encoder that are IFR
certified etc.

All that said, if you ask ATC for block altitude to go up in Class A
airspace or get sucked into a cloud, they are not gonna ask you to itemize
the equipment in your glider or be waiting when you land . . . normally (g).
--
bumper
"Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."
to reply, the last half is right to left


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"mm" wrote
More explicitly, an Instrument Rating is required for the pilot.

Well, that's part of it. Of course there is no glider instrument
rating, so an airplane instrument rating is required.

Also, the recency of experience requirements are insteresting. They
are different for solo and passenger-carrying flights.

Worth a read.

Michael

Yes, the 91.205 required equipment is specific
for "powered aircraft"

But the 61.57 IFR recency requirements are pretty
demanding. 3 hours of glider instrument flight experience
in the past 6 months? Better buy your safety pilot
a nice dinner...

There's not much uncontrolled airspace suitable
for cloud flying, though. There are pilot certification and recency
of experience requirements in Part 61.

the word "much" is relative. G airspace goes quite high
near Reno in some areas. Anywhere ATC cannot get a reliable
altimeter reading, the G airspace may go into the low
teens. These "fences" of airspace are likely candidates
for this kind of flying. I'm guessing this is where
Carl Herold did his IFR flying...

This has been a VERY enlightening discussion...

Subject: FAA
From:
Date: 8/14/2003 7:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: m

Craig,

Its been a long time since I've done any power flying but I can tell you
that the folks at LA center have been great about providing VFR flight
following when flying between the border and the Mojave wth a mode c
transponder. They seem to get quite a kick out of "working" a glider.
Granted most of my experience with this over the past 13 years with a
transponder has been in pretty good VFR conditions so they might not be at
max workload. I have also had great cooperation on clearances above 18K in
wave conditions. Now this is in VFR conditions and I am instrument rated...
Hi Bob:

I am sure there are exception to my experience, however VFR flight following is
not like working IFR traffic. Hey just a thought, since you have not been
flying power how do you keep your IFR currency, and is it really a valid ticket
at this point?

How do you like the ASW-22? I hope to see that bird in the air someday. I
heard Al did a nice job of refinishing her.

Cheers

Craig

Well, not quite. Motor Gliders are NOT considered powered aircraft. They
don't need a transponder or an ELT. They are subject to the same rules as
any glider.
You can not take off and fly a Motor Glider with a power rating (unless you
also have a glider rating and a self launch endorsement.)
There are no minimum equipment rules for Motor Gliders except those it was
certified with.

Bear in mind that there is a difference between IFR and IMC. In
uncontrolled airspace, no ATC clearance or flight plan is required to fly
IMC. However, as was pointed out below, both the glider and pilot must be
qualified and current for flight in IMC. And yes folks, you can be current
for IMC in a glider.

Watch out for those clouds!

Allan


"Michael" wrote in message
om...
Stefan "stefan"@mus. INVALID .ch wrote
Cloud flying is forbidden in the USA

This is not correct. Cloud flying is permitted in the USA, in
controlled airspace on an IFR flight plan or in uncontrolled airspace
with no flight plan. There's not much uncontrolled airspace suitable
for cloud flying, though. There are pilot certification and recency
of experience requirements in Part 61.

For motorgliders, which are considered powered aircraft, there are
also minimum equipment rules in 91.205. These do not apply to pure
gliders. As long as the AFM/POH does not prohibit cloud flying,
you're good to go.

Michael

"Judy Ruprecht" wrote in message
...
At 06:12 18 August 2003, Adp wrote:
Well, not quite. Motor Gliders are NOT considered
powered aircraft.

Beg to differ. No aircraft FAA-categorized as a glider
is an 'airplane,' but a motorglider IS a powered aircraft
FAA-categorized as a glider. In general, then...

.. the ELT requirements of 91.207 are inapplicable
to all aircraft categorized as gliders
.. the transponder exclusions of 91.215(b)(3) and
(5) apply to all aircraft categorized as gliders
.. the instrumentation requirements of 91.205(b)(1)-(10),
(12) & (13) for VFR flight, 91.205(c) for night flight
and 91.205(d) and (e) for IFR flight apply to motorgliders.

There are also instances when other equipment and/or
instrumentation requirements apply or operations may
be limited to Day VFR only...

.. in the case of any glider certificated in the Standard
Airworthiness category, when specified by the TCDS
and/or POH based on it
.. in the case of any glider certificated in the Experimental
airworthiness category, when specified the POH and/or
FAA-issued Operating Limitations
.. when specified under the terms of a Letter of Agreement,
authorization or deviation issued (for example) per
91.126 - 91.145 inclusive or 91.215(d)

Bear in mind that there is a difference between IFR
and IMC.

Yes, there is. But 61.57(c) recent experience requirements,
91.205(d) and (e) instrumentation requirements and
91.173 flight plan requirements list prerequisites
to flight under IFR, which includes instances when
VMC prevails. This is - uhm - awkward, since none of
these sections makes a clear provision for exceptions/deviations.
Still, 'Wave window' Letters of Agreement granted per
91.135(d) and 91.215(d) will typically provide for
flights conducted in VMC, under VFR by non-instrument
rated glider pilots.

Aren't FARs fun?

Judy

Judy, thanks for your expertise. It's always helpful.

A several years ago, I spoke with a supervisor of Denver Center. The
purpose of the call was to ensure that an old LOA for one of the many
Colorado "Wave Windows" was still valid.

In the conversation, I decided to explore the possibilities a bit further.
I started with a simple request, "assume that all FAR Part 61 and 91 IFR
requirements are met, including a Mode C transponder", "would you be
inclined to look favorably on an in-flight request for a course deviation
that would allow a glider under your control to traverse from one wave
window to another." I gave an example of two windows that were adjacent,
but not touching.

His response took me a bit aback. He said, "given those conditions, subject
to workload and conflicting traffic, we would probably approve anything you
wanted." He continued with observations and suggestions that revealed a
considerable knowledge of glider operations and limitations and that he was
very comfortable with them. With full understanding of the inability of a
glider to hold an assigned altitude, he was prepared to treat glider flight
under IFR just like any other aircraft. He did add that, before this
hypothetical flight, a visit to Denver Center for some face-to-face time
would be helpful.

Sometimes, you get a real warm feeling working with one of our Civil
Servants.

Bill Daniels

Todd,
It is NOT a powered Aircraft, civil or otherwise, it is a glider. The power
portion is irrelevant. Thus all rules applied to gliders apply to Motor
Gliders and not one rule more!
Look at any Airworthiness certificate for a Motor Glider it is a GLIDER with
a motor. Your understanding is incorrect. Any 14 CFR Part that applies to
Airplanes does not apply to ANY glider, whether or not is has a motor.

Don't limit your options by assuming regulations which do not apply to Motor
GLIDERS.

I base the minimum equipment rules on the fact that there are many gliders
flying today that do not meet minimum VFR requirements. They are not
applicable to GLIDERS! Look at any glider POH or placards, this is the MEL
for a glider. It is irrelevant who the certificating authority is. Your
Airworthiness certificate will have the operating requirements.

Allan

"Todd Pattist" wrote in message
...
"ADP" wrote:

Well, not quite. Motor Gliders are NOT considered powered aircraft.

Gliders are "aircraft" and motorgliders are "powered." It's
my understanding that any FAR that uses the term "powered
aircraft" applies to both motorgliders and airplanes. Any
FAR that uses the term "airplane" does not apply to
motorgliders.

They
don't need a transponder or an ELT. They are subject to the same rules
as
any glider.

This is true, because the applicable FAR's for transponders
and ELT (91.207) use the term "airplane." However, the
minimum equipment rules in 91.205 use the term "powered
aircraft"

91.205:"no person may operate a powered civil aircraft"
91.207: "no person may operate a U.S.-registered civil
airplane"

You can not take off and fly a Motor Glider with a power rating (unless
you
also have a glider rating and a self launch endorsement.)

True.

There are no minimum equipment rules for Motor Gliders except those it
was
certified with.

What do you base this on?

Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

A motor glider is NOT a powered Aircraft!!!! It is a glider with a motor.
You err. Check your airworthiness certificate. It says GLIDER.
No rule applicable to powered aircraft is applicable to a Motor Glider. Let
me say it one more time, a motor glider is a GLIDER with a Motor and is NOT
a powered aircraft. Write it 1000 times, a motor glider is a GLIDER!

Allan


"Judy Ruprecht" wrote in message
...
At 06:12 18 August 2003, Adp wrote:
Well, not quite. Motor Gliders are NOT considered
powered aircraft.

Beg to differ. No aircraft FAA-categorized as a glider
is an 'airplane,' but a motorglider IS a powered aircraft
FAA-categorized as a glider. In general, then...

.. the ELT requirements of 91.207 are inapplicable
to all aircraft categorized as gliders
.. the transponder exclusions of 91.215(b)(3) and
(5) apply to all aircraft categorized as gliders
.. the instrumentation requirements of 91.205(b)(1)-(10),
(12) & (13) for VFR flight, 91.205(c) for night flight
and 91.205(d) and (e) for IFR flight apply to motorgliders.

There are also instances when other equipment and/or
instrumentation requirements apply or operations may
be limited to Day VFR only...

.. in the case of any glider certificated in the Standard
Airworthiness category, when specified by the TCDS
and/or POH based on it
.. in the case of any glider certificated in the Experimental
airworthiness category, when specified the POH and/or
FAA-issued Operating Limitations
.. when specified under the terms of a Letter of Agreement,
authorization or deviation issued (for example) per
91.126 - 91.145 inclusive or 91.215(d)

Bear in mind that there is a difference between IFR
and IMC.

Yes, there is. But 61.57(c) recent experience requirements,
91.205(d) and (e) instrumentation requirements and
91.173 flight plan requirements list prerequisites
to flight under IFR, which includes instances when
VMC prevails. This is - uhm - awkward, since none of
these sections makes a clear provision for exceptions/deviations.
Still, 'Wave window' Letters of Agreement granted per
91.135(d) and 91.215(d) will typically provide for
flights conducted in VMC, under VFR by non-instrument
rated glider pilots.

Aren't FARs fun?

Judy

How about this one? Pilot has private glider air launch.
Takes dual in power plane, is endorsed to solo.

Student rules do not apply. He no longer has a student
certificate and is not bound by rules specific to students.

As I would intrepret this, he would be totally legal to take
the power plane on a 2000 mile trip, go into any alphabet
soup controlled space, except where an instrument rating
is required, with no endorsements. BUT he can not
fly a motor glider around the field.



91.205:"no person may operate a powered civil aircraft"
91.207: "no person may operate a U.S.-registered civil
airplane"

You can not take off and fly a Motor Glider with a power rating (unless you
also have a glider rating and a self launch endorsement.)

True.


Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

61.31(d) is fairly clear on this. If you are gonna be PIC,
you either

(1) have category and class on your pilot cert or
(2) under CFI supervision and receiving training or
(3) have the training and required solo endorsements

if you tell the inspector that caught you 2000 miles from home
that (2) or (3) is the case, he'll want to see proof.
When you show him the section your CFI signed, and the
section numbers, if you don't have all the endorsements
(including the correct section), you're outa luck.

And notice that the sections and numbers differ. If you
got solo X-C qualified in a glider, the instructor endorsement
was 61.93(j). Doesn't make you X-C qualified for power (61.93(e)).

61.31(d) gives exception (k) for experimentals, meaning
(d)(1) doesn't apply if you fly an rv-6, but (k) doesn't
except endorsement requirements for tailwheel or
self-launch or complex, etc.

If you say you aren't under (1), then under (2) or (3)
you're going to need something in writing better than
"Billy Bob CFI told me verbally it was ok."

There is this little matter of controlled airspace, however.
Kind of like the 11 year old driving the chevy around the
private farm, does the CFR apply to G airspace? Dunno.
If the farmer flies below 1200AGL over his own property,
is that ok? How about an unlicensed pilot hovering
a helicopter inside his hangar?

OK, getting a little extreme here But if you willy nilly
about without category and class or "supervision", and you
get into an accident,
joo gasuummm splainin' to do, Lucy!