looking for advice on lead n follow flights

....And at an organized contest there will be a ready retrieve should it
be needed.

On 11/3/2018 10:10 AM, Nick Kennedy wrote:
One more thought on this
If someone wants to learn to fly XC I think a good way is, once they can takeoff, thermal and land safely and use a final glide/ waypoint computer is for them/ encourage them to enter a Regional contest. Lots of chances of flying with others in a somewhat controlled situation. Lots of people to follow. Weather information, Retrieve office, partys and mutipule days of flying XC with a mob is great fun and its easy to get swept up in the momentum of leaving your home airport and heading out and making some decisions. It's easy to keep going when you see a gaggle in front of you climbing. With Flarm being more prevalent, that is a great help too. Those OLC meets Bruno puts on are all of the above, and everyone is required to have Flarm
Having a computer on board which shows all your makeable airports lit up in green is a big help too. Line several up those airports up in a row and its easier to keep going. The new software makes it so easy, just a glance tells you how your doing on landout safety.

--
Dan, 5J

I partially agree with Nick.

Flying contests is great for IMPROVING your XC skills. I don't think it is a good environment for LEARNING XC skills.

If you get in a contest with challenging conditions or intimidating terrain, I don't thing that is a great environment to take your first significant XC flights. Your first contest is pretty overwhelming anyway. Adding "cutting the apron strings" to that workload might be a step too far.

Lou

On Sat, 03 Nov 2018 08:37:12 -0700, Papa3 wrote:

Several good posts, but I think Per covers most of them in one. FWIW, I
ran a racing camp for a couple of years where we had anywhere from 10-15
pairs trying at the same time. Out of that, maybe 20% of the pairs were
able to pull off anything like a successful lead/follow. Out of all the
different failure modes, the two biggest ones we

- Leader saying "I'll head out for that next cloud 7 miles out and let
you know". Once you're more than a 1/2 mile apart, you're no longer
flying the same flight.

- Followers who refuse to follow. I distinctly remember being at 7,000
feet on a beautiful day 10 miles from the home airport and my follower
refused to pass up even a half knot as we went back to take a start.
He simply wasn't ready to commit to XC at any level.

I would say that briefing the mission and especially the key parameters
(hard deck, maximum separation, leader willing to pull the boards,
appetite for landing out) needs to be done on the ground for a solid
20-30 minutes before you start flying.

P3



On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 6:49:58 AM UTC-4, Per Carlin wrote:
I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close as possible
between the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than within
eyesight and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more
than a radio. In worst case is a GPS with some fixed turning points
enough to communicate distance and bearing to close the separation.

What happens if the distance becomes to big (10-15km) and I as leader
finds out a good climb? I will take it and most likely leave it until
the followers are there, they will only get the information of where it
was as good climb, not if it still there and how to center it. They
will stay for a while and struggle, perhaps find it a go to could base
and in worst case abandon it and follow me on the lows. At the next
thermal I find will the separation be even bigger and the follow & lead
will fail unless I pull the brake and take away 500m+ in height.

Lead & follow has to be performed in a closer configuration, max 2-3km
in distance and ~100m in height. If the separation becomes bigger do
the leader have a few options:
- To try a weak thermal which I might not have taken when alone, to
give the followers the time to catch up - Stay at could base to wait
until the followers has the same height until leaving - Pull the brake
to get to the same height and together make a save from the lows - The
follow have to follow all the time. Any kind of sidetrack will make the
sepperation bigger.

To a surprise for many can this be performed with quite big differences
in glider performance as long as the wing load are in the same range.

This art of soaring is not easy, it has to be performed with discipline
and with respect to all in the team. The leader has the respect that
the followers are not equally skilled in finding and centering thermals
and the followers has to dare to follow the leader into unknow areas
(without compromising the safety). It is also essential to prior the
flight agree on how to communicate on the radio, misunderstandings are
not helping when the situation becomes stressed.

Do you introduce your new pilots to flying mini-triangles when they're
getting ready[*] to go XC?

I found out about mini-triangles by word of mouth when I'd been solo
about 6 months and found that learning to fly them was a great help. As
an example, one I used a lot was a 43km/25mile triangle roughly centred
on our airfield and with its furthest point (one of the turnpoints) 10.5
km/6.5 miles from the field. Thats close enough to home to avoid worrying
a new pilot while just about big enough (longest leg is 16km/10miles) to
introduce them to the joys of flying a task while carrying a logger and,
preferably, a navigation system as well, especially if the turnpoints can
be put into their kit.

And of course you can use smaller triangles or squares if you want to
keep your fledglings within, say, 5 miles of home.


I think a new pilot can learn a lot from flying mini-triangles by
themselves, especially if they keep a record of times/speeds/weather/
flight logs so they can analyse their flights and chart their own
progress. Flying this sort of minitask makes progress toward the bronze
badge and XC endorsement rather more interesting than just noodling
around near the airfield.

FWIW, my club encourages new pilots to work on getting their bronze badge
as soon as they're flying single seaters (bronze requires 50 solo flights
including one and a two hour flights, all flown locally plus a written
quiz and a flying tests at the end of it ) and are reminded that Silver
height gain and duration can be flown as part of the 50 flights. Then, as
soon as a pilot has the Bronze XC add-on (navigation, field picking and
land-out practice, all done in a motor glider) they're readt to go for
silver distance.
[*] IOW, the new pilot can find and use thermals but doesn't yet have the
skills to fly to a turnpoint, let alone to do that at a reasonable speed.
Its also likely that he is not used to carrying a logger or using a map
or GPS system.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 8:15:04 PM UTC-5, Roy Garden wrote:
I'm an averagely useless XC pilot living in a visitor intensive place and
get asked to do Lead n Follow flights with some regularity.
I've tried, on quite a few occasions and short of herding cats, I can't
think of anything less likely to succeed.

The main issue is, keeping track of where people are and them knowing
where I am.
Flarm is great (no, it's not, it's fekkin useless) and the fallback Spot
the
gliders only works with any regularity up to about 8000' and gets a bit
spotty above that.

I don't want to have the guys right on my tail as I want to go check that
the "Next" bar is actually working before they follow me over. so that
leads to 10 (ish) mile separation frequently.

(The point of "Lead n follow", I think, is that it's a relatively safe, if
slow
way to go exploring.?)
If I say "Follow me chaps!" then head off, I could (and do, with some
regularity) **** it up. Fine when it's just me but the responsibility of
having people who don't quite "get" how nasty it can be, following me
stymies the whole thing.

Is there a way, to keep 10-15km separation and have people be able to
find me when I know it's good?
That we can do with kit that is "out there" ? (almost everyone has an
Oudie / flarm / phone with them)

I know this is urasB, but frankly, I could do without "Nigel" in his best
Essex Nasal, quoting that I should call out grid references from my map
. . (Which I use frequently, to block the sun, from the primary nav
display)

Ideas chap (s/eses)?

I'm kind of at the stage where I really really don't want to as it's
always

a cluster through loosing people now, but I do have the time and
inclination, if there was some kind of semi reliable way to track / be
tracked.

After following this thread I'm nonplussed with most of the responses. In my experience, nobody but nobody can be told or shown or coached to fly x-country. Yes, you can pick up advice, you can emulate things you see other pilots do at your field or at contests, you can practice on Condor but that all won't do much good unless you really, really want to learn how to do it and - as importantly - continually strive to improve your performance. I'd like to meet the successful pilot who credits his skills to individual instructors or fellow pilots who "taught" him or her to do it. Unless you go out there and fly, mostly on your own, away from the home field and in challenging conditions, every day there's a chance to make turn points and come back, you will not be a good x-country pilot. With that said, lead and follow is mostly garbage IMHO.
Herb

On Saturday, November 3, 2018 at 6:45:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 8:15:04 PM UTC-5, Roy Garden wrote:
I'm an averagely useless XC pilot living in a visitor intensive place and
get asked to do Lead n Follow flights with some regularity.
I've tried, on quite a few occasions and short of herding cats, I can't
think of anything less likely to succeed.

The main issue is, keeping track of where people are and them knowing
where I am.
Flarm is great (no, it's not, it's fekkin useless) and the fallback Spot
the
gliders only works with any regularity up to about 8000' and gets a bit
spotty above that.

I don't want to have the guys right on my tail as I want to go check that
the "Next" bar is actually working before they follow me over. so that
leads to 10 (ish) mile separation frequently.

(The point of "Lead n follow", I think, is that it's a relatively safe, if
slow
way to go exploring.?)
If I say "Follow me chaps!" then head off, I could (and do, with some
regularity) **** it up. Fine when it's just me but the responsibility of
having people who don't quite "get" how nasty it can be, following me
stymies the whole thing.

Is there a way, to keep 10-15km separation and have people be able to
find me when I know it's good?
That we can do with kit that is "out there" ? (almost everyone has an
Oudie / flarm / phone with them)

I know this is urasB, but frankly, I could do without "Nigel" in his best
Essex Nasal, quoting that I should call out grid references from my map
. . (Which I use frequently, to block the sun, from the primary nav
display)

Ideas chap (s/eses)?

I'm kind of at the stage where I really really don't want to as it's
always

a cluster through loosing people now, but I do have the time and
inclination, if there was some kind of semi reliable way to track / be
tracked.

After following this thread I'm nonplussed with most of the responses. In my experience, nobody but nobody can be told or shown or coached to fly x-country. Yes, you can pick up advice, you can emulate things you see other pilots do at your field or at contests, you can practice on Condor but that all won't do much good unless you really, really want to learn how to do it and - as importantly - continually strive to improve your performance. I'd like to meet the successful pilot who credits his skills to individual instructors or fellow pilots who "taught" him or her to do it. Unless you go out there and fly, mostly on your own, away from the home field and in challenging conditions, every day there's a chance to make turn points and come back, you will not be a good x-country pilot. With that said, lead and follow is mostly garbage IMHO.
Herb

Hey, Herb, what do you REALLY think about lead and follow? Well, it worked for me when I first started flying cross country, perhaps not as tightly coupled as some here have suggested (except for one XC camp).

Tom

At 01:45 04 November 2018, wrote:

After following this thread I'm nonplussed with most of the responses. In
m=
y experience, nobody but nobody can be told or shown or coached to fly
x-co=
untry. Yes, you can pick up advice, you can emulate things you see other
pi=
lots do at your field or at contests, you can practice on Condor but that
a=
ll won't do much good unless you really, really want to learn how to do
it
=
and - as importantly - continually strive to improve your performance.
I'd
=
like to meet the successful pilot who credits his skills to individual
inst=
ructors or fellow pilots who "taught" him or her to do it. Unless you go
ou=
t there and fly, mostly on your own, away from the home field and in
challe=
nging conditions, every day there's a chance to make turn points and come
b=
ack, you will not be a good x-country pilot. With that said, lead and
follo=
w is mostly garbage IMHO.
Herb


Worked for me Herb. Reckon you should leave out the H from IMHO. Your
opinion doesn't seem very humble most of the time.

Well said!

For me, a single lead and follow showed me what the sky looked like from
out of gliding distance from home and that there was, in fact, lift "out
there".Â* Then I started working my way further away solo and, yes,
landing out occasionally.

On 11/3/2018 7:45 PM, wrote:

After following this thread I'm nonplussed with most of the responses. In my experience, nobody but nobody can be told or shown or coached to fly x-country. Yes, you can pick up advice, you can emulate things you see other pilots do at your field or at contests, you can practice on Condor but that all won't do much good unless you really, really want to learn how to do it and - as importantly - continually strive to improve your performance. I'd like to meet the successful pilot who credits his skills to individual instructors or fellow pilots who "taught" him or her to do it. Unless you go out there and fly, mostly on your own, away from the home field and in challenging conditions, every day there's a chance to make turn points and come back, you will not be a good x-country pilot. With that said, lead and follow is mostly garbage IMHO.
Herb

--
Dan, 5J

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 4:00:05 AM UTC-6, Jim White wrote:
At 01:45 04 November 2018, wrote:

After following this thread I'm nonplussed with most of the responses. In
m=
y experience, nobody but nobody can be told or shown or coached to fly
x-co=
untry. Yes, you can pick up advice, you can emulate things you see other
pi=
lots do at your field or at contests, you can practice on Condor but that
a=
ll won't do much good unless you really, really want to learn how to do
it
=
and - as importantly - continually strive to improve your performance.
I'd
=
like to meet the successful pilot who credits his skills to individual
inst=
ructors or fellow pilots who "taught" him or her to do it. Unless you go
ou=
t there and fly, mostly on your own, away from the home field and in
challe=
nging conditions, every day there's a chance to make turn points and come
b=
ack, you will not be a good x-country pilot. With that said, lead and
follo=
w is mostly garbage IMHO.
Herb


Worked for me Herb. Reckon you should leave out the H from IMHO. Your
opinion doesn't seem very humble most of the time.

Story of my life, Jim White. Always had a hard time with humble-ness, humblety, whatever. Queen says it well in Bohemian Rhapsody:

Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality
Open your eyes, look up to the skies and see
I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy
Because I'm easy come, easy go, little high, little low
Any way the wind blows doesn't really matter to me, to me

Sing along, everyone.

Worked for a recent US Nationals winner. Back about 20 years ago he headed out with me on a lead-and-follow. Being an experienced hang glider pilot and navy pilot, he understood the concept of loose formation flying. It was the first time he had seen the techniques all strung together on a task. Not a cure all, but by no means a waste of time.

P3

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 7:43:16 AM UTC-8, wrote:
Queen says it well in Bohemian Rhapsody:

Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality
Open your eyes, look up to the skies and see
I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy
Because I'm easy come, easy go, little high, little low
Any way the wind blows doesn't really matter to me, to me

Sing along, everyone.

Looking forward to the movie in a couple hours!!!!