Change in AIM wording concerning procedure turn

"Ron Garret" wrote in message
...

I don't think that's a very good example because (one could argue)
you're being radar vectored to the approach, which is specifically cited
in the AIM as one of the situations where a PT is not needed.


You're not being radar vectored to the approach in this example. The last
vector was issued by Chicago departure, Chicago Center then issued direct to
GRB VORTAC. That's the route clearance you're operating on when Green Bay
approach instructs you to join the runway 36 localizer.

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

I've already made my case. You may reread it and the references until you
understand it, or choose to disagree.


I missed the message in which you did that, didn't make it through my
provider. Could you copy and paste it in reply to this message?

"rps" wrote in message
oups.com...

I forgot to mentiond that I'd hold south of DEPRE, left turns.


Any concern about EGF456?

Steven P. McNicoll said:

"If you begin descent when ten miles from DEPRE you've busted your
altitude.
The last instruction was 'descend and maintain 3,000, join the runway
36
localizer', approach clearance was issued at five miles from DEPRE."

I thought the last instruction was "AWI123 cleared ILS runway three six
contact tower one one eight point seven." You may not be able to
intercept the glideslope from 3000 (e.g., if the signal is weak there),
which is why I suggest descending.

According to the plate, if you were flying the PT, upon crossing DEPRE
southbound, you can descend to 2700 and track outbound on the PT and
then descend to 2200 once you've begun turning inbound on the PT. The
PT area includes the entire area south of DEPRE and west of the
localizer for a radius of 10 nm. So, if you're on the localizer, I
believe you can safely descend to 2700 so that you have a chance of
capturing the glideslope from below. I suggested to let ATC know so
that ATC can correct you if that's not what they want you to do.

Good point - I forgot about the other craft. I'd hope that my
communication with ATC about my plan to enter the hold and descend
would alert ATC that there may be a conflict.

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 18:06:34 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


Alright, here's a real world example for you. You're flying AWI123 from
KORD to KGRB, Chicago departure puts you in the east departure track on a
360 heading and hands you off to Chicago Center. Around the Kenosha, WI,
area Chicago Center tells you to proceed direct to GRB VORTAC. Down the
road a piece you're handed off to Green Bay approach. At GRB the ILS RWY 36
approach is in use, and the approach controller notices you're present track
will intercept the localizer about fifteen miles from DEPRE, the LOM/IAF.
On initial contact you're told "descend and maintain 3,000 join the runway
36 localizer". About three minutes later you hear the same instruction
issued to EGF456. When you're about five miles from DEPRE the approach
controller says "AWI123 cleared ILS runway three six contact tower one one
eight point seven." When you reach DEPRE will you continue towards the
runway or will you start a procedure turn?

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...s/00873I36.PDF


If I understand your scenario properly, I have intercepted the FAC about 15
miles South of DEPRE and then turned inbound (to the N, towards DEPRE). I
am at 3000'. At 5 miles from DEPRE I am cleared for the approach. I should
be below the GP at that point so I would just continue along until
intercepting the GP, and then descend into the airport.

The presence of an aircraft behind me is irrelevant.

What is your point?
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

In article .net,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Ron Garret" wrote in message
...

I don't think that's a very good example because (one could argue)
you're being radar vectored to the approach, which is specifically cited
in the AIM as one of the situations where a PT is not needed.


You're not being radar vectored to the approach in this example. The last
vector was issued by Chicago departure, Chicago Center then issued direct to
GRB VORTAC. That's the route clearance you're operating on when Green Bay
approach instructs you to join the runway 36 localizer.

Yes, but I would think that the instruction to join the localizer
constitutes a radar vector, notwithstanding the fact that the controller
may or may not have actually voiced the word "vector".

rg

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 17:12:16 -0400, Ron Rosenfeld
wrote:

If I understand your scenario properly, I have intercepted the FAC about 15
miles South of DEPRE and then turned inbound (to the N, towards DEPRE). I
am at 3000'. At 5 miles from DEPRE I am cleared for the approach. I should
be below the GP at that point so I would just continue along until
intercepting the GP, and then descend into the airport.

The presence of an aircraft behind me is irrelevant.

What is your point?

Ron,

You've lsot me a bit here. I thought your earlier posts and
references to 97.20 were arguing that a procedure turn is mandatory by
regulation in all cases when it's charted and the standard exceptions
(NoPT, vectors to final, etc.) don't apply.

The standard exceptions don't apply in this scenario proposed by
Steven.

If I misunderstood your earlier posts about 97.20, then perhaps we've
had a similar point of view all along.

I'm intrigued.

Tim.

Correction - instead of "then descend to 2200 once you've begun turning
inbound on the PT" I should have written "then descend to 2200 once
you've begun turning inbound onto the FAC."

"rps" wrote in message
oups.com...

Steven P. McNicoll said:

"If you begin descent when ten miles from DEPRE you've busted your
altitude. The last instruction was 'descend and maintain 3,000, join the
runway 36 localizer', approach clearance was issued at five miles from
DEPRE."

I thought the last instruction was "AWI123 cleared ILS runway three six
contact tower one one eight point seven." You may not be able to
intercept the glideslope from 3000 (e.g., if the signal is weak there),
which is why I suggest descending.


You might want to read the scenario again. The approach clearance was
issued when the aircraft was five miles from DEPRE, so when you're ten miles
from DEPRE that hasn't happened yet. When ten miles from DEPRE the last
instruction was indeed "descend and maintain 3,000, join the runway 36
localizer". When you're five miles from DEPRE you're about 700' below the
glideslope and less than tem miles from the GS transmitter. The signal is
fine.