IFR Cancellation Question

"Alan Gerber" wrote in message
...

It depends. If I were looking for a field inside a B or C airspace, or
with somewhere I didn't want to go on the other side, I'd probably ask for
help sooner, rather than risk being in the wrong place. Otherwise, I'd
probably make the request *later*, after trying to find it on my own.


That risk is acceptable in the case of Class D airspace?

"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...

But earlier in this thread, you said:

Yes, if he's not talking to the tower when he enters Class D airspace
he's
busted FAR 91.129(c)(1).


Now, you say that applies only if the pilot intends to land at the Class D
airport? Where is that distinction mentioned in the regs?


In FAR 91.129(c)(1).


§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.
(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace
must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio
communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of
foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic
services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those
communications while within that airspace.

But earlier in this thread, you said:
Yes, if he's not talking to the tower when he enters Class D airspace
he's
busted FAR 91.129(c)(1).
Now, you say that applies only if the pilot intends to land at the Class D
airport? Where is that distinction mentioned in the regs?
In FAR 91.129(c)(1).
§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.
(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace
must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio
communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of
foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic
services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those
communications while within that airspace.

There's nothing here about "intent to land". Only "operating an
aircraft in Class D"

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
It depends. If I were looking for a field inside a B or C airspace, or
with somewhere I didn't want to go on the other side, I'd probably ask for
help sooner, rather than risk being in the wrong place. Otherwise, I'd
probably make the request *later*, after trying to find it on my own.

That risk is acceptable in the case of Class D airspace?

You make a good point -- I was thinking about non-towered fields when I
wrote that. It sort of came out wrong; I wouldn't want to bust a D
airspace either.

.... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
Is that really a necessary demarcation if approach is going to hand me off
to the tower?

What do you mean by hand you off to the tower? A handoff is a radar
function.

I mean tell the tower I'm coming and have me keep my squawk code when I
contact the tower. Does this have another name? Is this not normally
done at class D airports?

It's not particularly necessary, but it sure does save time. I got lost
on my first student cross-country solo, and it was a lot easier to ask
Approach for help, since I already had a squawk code, and, even though *I*
didn't know where I was, *they* already did. I could have contacted them
and gotten the same help, but it was faster since I was already - pardon
the expression - on their radar.

Flight following, by itself, is just traffic advisories.

Well, sure. But, as I said, if you're already in communication with ATC,
you can get assistance faster if you get lost.

.... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

On 12/26/06 13:53, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...

But earlier in this thread, you said:

Yes, if he's not talking to the tower when he enters Class D airspace
he's
busted FAR 91.129(c)(1).


Now, you say that applies only if the pilot intends to land at the Class D
airport? Where is that distinction mentioned in the regs?

So you dodged my question. I'll assume that means that you realized you
were wrong ;-)



In FAR 91.129(c)(1).


� 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.
(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace
must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio
communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of
foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic
services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those
communications while within that airspace.



And why do you think the approach controller handing the area does not
meet this regulation?




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

"Alan Gerber" wrote in message
...

I mean tell the tower I'm coming and have me keep my squawk code when I
contact the tower. Does this have another name? Is this not normally
done at class D airports?


What's the advantage in having the radar controller call the tower with that
information?

I used to be a controller at Chicago Center, we provided services at
Oshkosh, OSH tower has no radar. When providing flight following I would
give a final traffic advisory and terminate radar service about ten miles
out. Something like, "Skylane 1234A, radar service terminated squawk VFR, I
have no targets between you and the field, contact Oshkosh tower 118.5."
There's no need to call the tower since the pilot will provide all the
information in his initial call that I could have passed anyway, no reason
to keep the beacon code as the tower had no radar.
I now work at Green Bay Approach, we provide services at Appleton, ATW tower
has a BRITE radar scope. For VFR arrivals ATW will see a full data block
showing the call sign, type aircraft, speed, altitude, and an "A" that
indicates the aircraft is landing at ATW. I just ship the aircraft to the
tower about ten miles out. I don't terminate radar service since the tower
can still issue traffic advisories.

"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...

So you dodged my question. I'll assume that means that you realized you
were wrong ;-)


I didn't dodge your question, I thought the distinction you were seeking was
in what ATC facility to call. I never said it applies only if the pilot
intends to land at the Class D airport.



And why do you think the approach controller handing the area does not
meet this regulation?


Because approach control has no authority over VFR operations in Class D
airspace.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Alan Gerber" wrote in message
...

I mean tell the tower I'm coming and have me keep my squawk code when I
contact the tower. Does this have another name? Is this not normally
done at class D airports?


What's the advantage in having the radar controller call the tower with that
information?

Perhaps you should use your connections and ask that very same
question to San Carlos Tower (KSQL), as they have pilots coming in
exactly like this, and they *ARE* a Class D airport.

In fact, it isn't only the TRACON that is doing this, KSFO
Tower does this as well. Constantly and Consistently, the following
is given to pilots:

"N123CM, leaving Class Bravo airspace to the south, radar services
terminated, maintain your present beacon code, contact San Carlos
Tower, 119.0."

Want proof of it, hit up the KSFO Tower feed at LiveATC. Now, I
haven't visited KSQL so I don't know if they have BRITE, but from my
tour of NCT, controllers there told us that it is done so the tower
knows who is who as they drop below the Class B floor. For some they do
call the tower to let them know who is coming in (pending how the
traffic load is), some they don't. But it is a standard practice
happening at one of the busiest centralized TRACONs in the airspace.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFFkez3yBkZmuMZ8L8RAuDmAJ4z+npZ1p6FNHg06hAJsN PRrmNdUACfTG8s
k8TH1tQ/czgmiL9P0xrOSC0=
=PjrQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 12/26/06 19:41, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...

So you dodged my question. I'll assume that means that you realized you
were wrong ;-)


I didn't dodge your question, I thought the distinction you were seeking was
in what ATC facility to call. I never said it applies only if the pilot
intends to land at the Class D airport.

I'll try to lay it out for you.

Allen said:

Just like Mark said, pilot is in communication with ATC.

I have been in HKS airspace many a times without talking to tower while
manuevering around downtown Jackson at 2000 feet. I have always been in
contact with JAN during these times and never switched over to HKS.


to which you said:

We're not talking about those kinds of flights. We're talking about a
flight that intends to land at a towered field at the center of Class D
airspace

Doesn't that mean that you believe flights intending to land at the Class
D airport must be in communication with the tower before entering the
Class D airspace, while through-flights do not?

Otherwise, what did you mean by "We're not talking about those kinds of
flights..."?






And why do you think the approach controller handing the area does not
meet this regulation?


Because approach control has no authority over VFR operations in Class D
airspace.


What does VFR operations have to do with it? This is not a distinction made
by the regulations (if I'm wrong, please cite the reg).


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA