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Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC



 
 
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  #71  
Old January 4th 07, 07:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Newps
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Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC




Pixel Dent writes:


Well, once again I don't know much about airliners, but in smaller
planes at least you don't generally increase airspeed to descend you
reduce power.


Not me. The descent is where I get back the speed I invested in the
climb. If turbulence allows I set up a 500 fpm descent, without
touching the power which is almost always max for cruise. I generally
then get 190 MPH indicated in the descent, which is the bottom of the
yellow arc.
  #72  
Old January 4th 07, 09:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mxsmanic
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Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

bdl writes:

Is the FMC flying or are you?


When the FMS is on, it flies the plane. More specifically, the FMC
provides data to the flight director, and the autopilot then executes
the instructions from the flight director. For most of the flight,
you don't have to do anything, as the FMC will manage climb, cruise,
descent, and (with a few buttons) autolanding.

You can enable or disable the FMC wholly or partially, depending on
your requirements. You can shut it off completely and just use the
MCP (the autopilot panel on the glare shield) to manage the flight
director and the autopilot. You can wholly or partially shut that
down, too. You can also turn off the autopilot and just fly the
aircraft by hand, either following the flight director's instructions,
or entirely on your own.

The autopilot/FMS controls pitch, roll, and throttle, so everything is
covered. You have a lot of flexibility in choosing how much you want
to do automatically, and how much you want to do by hand.

In the real world, the FMS handles most of each flight, mainly because
that provides the best fuel economy and least wear and tear on the
aircraft (because the FMS is programmed to optimize those by default).

I'm not an airline pilot, so I'll go
ahead and ask the question (please real world answers only) is the FMC
the boss or is the pilot?


The pilot is the boss. The FMS is no more in control than an
autopilot. It flies the plane when you tell it to, but it stops when
you tell it to stop.

If the FMC says optimal is such and such, but ATC says do this,
doesn't the airline pilot do what ATC says?


From the discussion here, apparently ATC is in control. If the FMS
doesn't agree, you override the FMS.

I always assumed that a FMS in a modern airliner was just a souped up
version of my Garmin 430. I.e. it has a plan, but what I get is ALWAYS
different. Even when I try to "guess" ahead of time.


It's a very, very souped up version of a Garmin 430, but the basic
idea is the same. And the results can vary because real-world
conditions (such as winds aloft) can vary. But an FMS is much better
at executing the plan than a Garmin 430.

For example, an FMS knows that you must not exceed 250 kts below
10,000 feet MSL, and will respect that restriction. A less
sophisticated automation system doesn't know this. Indeed, the
automation used in smaller aircraft doesn't pay any attention to speed
or throttle at all.

Yet another difference between your simulated world and the real world,
huh?


Yes.

Does the lack of heavy traffic make you a better simulated pilot?


Over the long run, I don't think it makes any difference, any more
than it does in the real world. It's the product of time and traffic
that counts.

Two words, "Say again"


Yeah, but after saying this once or twice, I begin to feel like a
nuisance.

If you want to get a glimpse into real world ATC, take a look at Don
Brown's columns at Avweb
(http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/193881-1.html)


I'll take a look.

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  #73  
Old January 4th 07, 09:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mxsmanic
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Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

bdl writes:

If you want to get a glimpse into real world ATC, take a look at Don
Brown's columns at Avweb
(http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/193881-1.html)


I looked at the page. He seems to discuss nothing but politics.

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  #74  
Old January 4th 07, 09:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mxsmanic
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Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

bdl writes:

If you were in "real" IMC it's even worse (at least until you develop
some practice and learn to keep the picture in your head). Always
seems like ATC is telling you to do something just as you are in the
middle of something else.


I've already had that experience in simulation.

On VATSIM, you can communicate by voice or by text. I usually
communicate by text, simply because the sound quality is often so bad
for some controllers that I cannot make out what they are saying.
However, it is true that text is woefully unrealistic, and it also
makes it difficult or impossible to communicate during the most
critical phases of the flight, as one simply doesn't have time to type
(even fast typists like me).

When I listen to real ATC on liveatc.net, it sounds just as bad. The
quality problems aren't the same, but their magnitude is. I'm
surprised more aircraft aren't running into each other. I can only
hope that the audio quality is much better aboard the actual aircraft,
but I doubt it.

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  #75  
Old January 4th 07, 09:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mxsmanic
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Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

Thomas Borchert writes:

But to do that would be totally unrealistic.


Not at all. The aircraft is perfectly capable of autolanding in real
life. As far as I know, the actual ground equipment is the same for
all ILS categories. The aircraft equipment differs by category (the
higher the category, the fancier the equipment), but the 737-800 is
fully equipped for Cat IIIc autolanding.

I don't know how often autolanding is used in real life. Apparently
many pilots like to fly the landing and perhaps at least part of the
approach by hand. But they can still autoland if they want to.

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  #76  
Old January 4th 07, 09:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mxsmanic
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Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

Jim Carter writes:

So you are really using your home computer as a procedure and systems
simulator and not a flight training tool.


I use it for both. When I fly a 737-800, there's a much greater
emphasis on systems and procedures. When I fly a Baron 58, there's a
much greater emphasis on flight training itself. I use the Baron for
pattern practice, but the 737 for complex navigation and ATC practice.

I will agree that learning
systems and procedures are part of the flight training process (or any
training process that involves automation), but they are not as big a
part of the overall training as you seem to believe.


I think that depends hugely on what type of flying you intend to do.
For airline pilots, systems and procedures seem to be the lion's share
of what they do. Actually flying the plane is becoming increasingly
incidental.

I say that because
of your devotion to the idea that you really are doing exactly the same
thing as a professional pilot actually flying an aircraft along the same
routes.


Exactly the same thing? I think not. But I come very close.

There are a lot of freewill decisions that still take place in the
cockpit and those decisions can not be simulated.


I make free-will decisions, too.

However, in practical commercial aviation, the idea is to reduce free
will to a minimum. Free will does not yield economical and
low-maintenance flight. Flying exclusively by the numbers with a
computer does. Airlines would probably love to dispense with pilots
entirely.

If it were considered safe, reliable, or even desirable to
automate the entire process (as a systems simulator provides) then there
would be no flight training requirements because there would be no
pilots.


That time will come. Their presence even today is increasingly as a
back-up. It's already possible to fly aircraft from gate to gate
without a pilot, although such systems have not actually been deployed
commercially, as far as I know.

True flying is involves much less systems integration and
systems management than you seem to believe.


Maybe in a Cessna, but not in commercial aviation.

My point to this post is that you seem to have the incorrect idea about
systems management and procedure memorization being the most significant
part of operating an aircraft -- that's not the way it is for the large
majority of people who fly.


Do you fly large jets for an airline, or small aircraft?

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  #77  
Old January 4th 07, 09:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Mxsmanic
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Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

Judah writes:

How do you know?


The honest ones admit it to me.

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  #78  
Old January 4th 07, 09:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Mxsmanic
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Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

Sam Spade writes:

I don't think you understand the aerodynamics of the real world. MSFS
has great scenery but the aircraft and the atmosphere modeling are
terribly wrong in MSFS.


It sounds like you don't fly much in MSFS.

Tell me _exactly_ what's wrong with the aircraft modeling.

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  #79  
Old January 4th 07, 09:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Mxsmanic
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Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

bdl writes:

The realism is very striking. That doesn't make it REAL, however.


As long as the realism is striking, it doesn't have to be real. The
whole purpose of simulation is realism without reality, after all.

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  #80  
Old January 4th 07, 09:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
john smith
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Default Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC


Paul Tomblin wrote:

In a previous article, Mxsmanic said:


Paul Tomblin writes:


I fly with a Garmin 296 handheld GPS. In my experience, nearly always
just around the same time it says I need to start my descent if I want to
descend at 500fpm to my destination, ATC clears me down to a lower
altitude without being asked.


I have noticed this as well. I suppose if they know the route well,
they know when the descent usually starts.



Except they know where to start my descent whether I'm flying a 100 knot
Archer or a 140 knot Lance, or on one occasion, a Piper Dakota with a 70
knot tail wind.

I suspect there is software they use to handle this.



It believe it is based on the instrument requirement (?) of 500 fpm rate
of descent.

At a given airspeed and altitude, at 500 fpm an aircraft should commence
its descent at the calculated distance.

This will vary depending on the facility, traffic and procedures.

I calculate the distance in may head for my given cruise altitude and
wait to see if ATC calls me at the appropriate time. They are usually
early on the call to assign lower.

 




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