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#1
September 13th 03, 12:51 PM
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Impact of Eurofighters in the Middle East
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#2
September 13th 03, 04:38 PM
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Aaaah but isn't the AIM 54 being retired as the only plane that can carry it
is the F14 which is also nearing it max flying hours so will also be retired? BD
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#4
September 13th 03, 04:58 PM
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Quant wrote: (Jack White) wrote I'm not an air force expert but it is clear from your post that neither do you. Lets post your claims at rec.aviation.military and watch the replies. The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle East including Israel. The Eurofighter Typhoon has the Meteor Mach4+ Ramjet Powered air to air BVR missiles with OVER 100km range. So? The US AIM-54 is operative for many years now and has a range of at least 135 km. Why do you think that future American or Israeli made missiles won't have those capabilities? Why do you think that in the tiny Israeli airspace medium/long range missiles are more important than short range ones? Israel clearly has superiority in the short range. Also, successful tactics, good pilots and electronic measures and counter measures are very important. While Israel will know the exact characteristics of the systems Saudi Arabia and Egypt will have and would fit its planes with appropriate counter measures, the Saudis won't have a clue about Israel's unique technological modifications because Israel is doing a lot of those modifications itself. The Eurofighter Typhoon has the capability to destroy F-15Is and F-16Is before the F-15I or F-16I even knows that the Eurofighter Typhoon is there. The info will probably come from early warning systems. Israel is relying upon its own early warning systems while Saudi Arabia and Egypt will have to rely upon inferior systems, unless the US will sell its best technology to these Arab countries (and I doubt it will happen). and again, electronic measures and counter measures are important here and Israel's own industry gives it the technological superiority over its neighbors. The F-22 Raptor is the only aircraft that performs better than the Eurofighter Typhoon in an air superiority capacity. From what I've read I don't think even the JSF is up to the Eurofighter Typhoon's level in the air superiority role. The JSF would certainly be a huge improvement for Israel over F-15Is and F-16Is though. An Israeli pilot plus a JSF would probably be better than a Saudi Pilot with a Eurofighter Typhoon, but with equal pilots, ONLY the F-22 Raptor is better than the Eurofighter Typhoon from what I've read. F-22 Raptors are VERY EXPENSIVE, I don't know if Israel can afford them even with free US taxpayer money. I'd think that Israel would probably go for the JSF in the future. Israel is already part of the JSF project. Summing this subject I think that none of us could answer the hypothetical question about air force superiority in the Middle East in case the Arabs will have Eurofighters. It is clear though that the Egyptian army, and maybe also the Saudi Army pose a real threat on Israel. This is not new. The real Asymmetry is in the quality of the pilots. I don't know the Israeli training tempo, but I read a piece by Victor Hanson that said it was comparable to the US training tempo, and that most dictatorial states have a training regimen that is about 5% of the time the US devotes to its pilots. In military training, marginal quantitative difference can lead to huge qualitative differences. The reality is, these airplanes are to be used on the local population when they get fractious. In any combat with a highly qualified air force like the IAF, even the fanciest airplane is little more than expensive scrap metal if your pilots aren't trained. -- Wherever there is a jackboot stepping on a human face, there will be a well-heeled Western liberal there to assure us that the face enjoys free health care and a high degree of literacy.\ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\ John Derbyshire http://www.aracnet.com/~reynard/blogbog.htm}
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#5
September 13th 03, 05:05 PM
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I hope that every country surrounding Israel will purchase full complements
of those EF2000. It will deplete their budgets and will render their airforces useless without Israelis haveing to shoot a single antiaircraft missile. According to all reports EF2000 is the most expensive heap of non-airworthy trash ever built. "Quant" wrote in message om... (Jack White) wrote I'm not an air force expert but it is clear from your post that neither do you. Lets post your claims at rec.aviation.military and watch the replies. The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle East including Israel. The Eurofighter Typhoon has the Meteor Mach4+ Ramjet Powered air to air BVR missiles with OVER 100km range. So? The US AIM-54 is operative for many years now and has a range of at least 135 km. Why do you think that future American or Israeli made missiles won't have those capabilities? Why do you think that in the tiny Israeli airspace medium/long range missiles are more important than short range ones? Israel clearly has superiority in the short range. Also, successful tactics, good pilots and electronic measures and counter measures are very important. While Israel will know the exact characteristics of the systems Saudi Arabia and Egypt will have and would fit its planes with appropriate counter measures, the Saudis won't have a clue about Israel's unique technological modifications because Israel is doing a lot of those modifications itself. The Eurofighter Typhoon has the capability to destroy F-15Is and F-16Is before the F-15I or F-16I even knows that the Eurofighter Typhoon is there. The info will probably come from early warning systems. Israel is relying upon its own early warning systems while Saudi Arabia and Egypt will have to rely upon inferior systems, unless the US will sell its best technology to these Arab countries (and I doubt it will happen). and again, electronic measures and counter measures are important here and Israel's own industry gives it the technological superiority over its neighbors. The F-22 Raptor is the only aircraft that performs better than the Eurofighter Typhoon in an air superiority capacity. From what I've read I don't think even the JSF is up to the Eurofighter Typhoon's level in the air superiority role. The JSF would certainly be a huge improvement for Israel over F-15Is and F-16Is though. An Israeli pilot plus a JSF would probably be better than a Saudi Pilot with a Eurofighter Typhoon, but with equal pilots, ONLY the F-22 Raptor is better than the Eurofighter Typhoon from what I've read. F-22 Raptors are VERY EXPENSIVE, I don't know if Israel can afford them even with free US taxpayer money. I'd think that Israel would probably go for the JSF in the future. Israel is already part of the JSF project. Summing this subject I think that none of us could answer the hypothetical question about air force superiority in the Middle East in case the Arabs will have Eurofighters. It is clear though that the Egyptian army, and maybe also the Saudi Army pose a real threat on Israel. This is not new.
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#6
September 13th 03, 06:02 PM
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On 13 Sep 2003 04:51:07 -0700, Quant wrote:
(Jack White) wrote I'm not an air force expert but it is clear from your post that neither do you. Lets post your claims at rec.aviation.military and watch the replies. [I'm not an expert either, but I'll wade in nevertheless...] The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle East including Israel. Hang, on, who's saying thre Saudis are buying the Typhoon? If they are, I haven't heard of it. The Eurofighter Typhoon has the Meteor Mach4+ Ramjet Powered air to air BVR missiles with OVER 100km range. It will have in the future; currently Meteor is still under development. So? The US AIM-54 is operative for many years now and has a range of at least 135 km. That's a theoretical range; what's a typical engagement range, and what's the furthest range it's been successfully fired at? Bear in mind that planes under attack aren't going to just sit there. They could run away, hoping to outrange the missile. Or the could manouvre. Or use electronic countermeasures. If the missile depends on a radar from the firing aircraft illuminating the target, the target aircraft can fire a missile of its own, to make the firing aircraft turn away and stop illuminating (obviously this won't work for fire-and-forget missiles). The target aircraft can also fire flares to confuse IR-homing missiles, or trailing pod to give a false radar image (the Typhoon does this; I'm not sure if any other fighters do). Some people have suggested that a defending aircraft could fire a laser beam to confuse/destroy the sensors in a missile. Why do you think that future American or Israeli made missiles won't have those capabilities? Why do you think that in the tiny Israeli airspace medium/long range missiles are more important than short range ones? Clearly, if there was a long-range missile that was immune to all those countermeasures, it would be very useful. Then again, the ability to turn lead into gold woulds be useful too. In the past, people removed guns from fighters, claiming they'll never be used because all engagements would be long range. This prediction turned out to be false, and the guns were put back in. (incidently, the RAF's Typhoons won't have a gun, but the other countries' variants will). Israel clearly has superiority in the short range. Also, successful tactics, good pilots and electronic measures and counter measures are very important. Good pilots are probably the single most important factor. While Israel will know the exact characteristics of the systems Saudi Arabia and Egypt will have Why? and would fit its planes with appropriate counter measures, the Saudis won't have a clue about Israel's unique technological modifications because Israel is doing a lot of those modifications itself. I don't see why SA and Egypt couldn't make modifications ot their aircraft too, even if they don't have a large electronics industry. The Eurofighter Typhoon has the capability to destroy F-15Is and F-16Is before the F-15I or F-16I even knows that the Eurofighter Typhoon is there. This may or may not be the case. Typhoon is almost certainly a better plane than the F-15 or F-16; it's more manouvrable, has a better thrust-to-weight ratio, can supercruise, is partially stealthed, and has better avionics making the pilot's job easier. However, until it has seen combat, it's to early to say definitievely what its capabilities are. The info will probably come from early warning systems. Israel is relying upon its own early warning systems while Saudi Arabia and Egypt will have to rely upon inferior systems, unless the US will sell its best technology to these Arab countries Or unless the Europeans do. (and I doubt it will happen). and again, electronic measures and counter measures are important here and Israel's own industry gives it the technological superiority over its neighbors. I doubt if Israel's electronics industry is better than Europe's; Europe's is certainly a lot bigger. And size counts: how many models of anti-aircraft missile does Israel produce? Europe produces more variety. So even if the best Israeli missile is better than a typical European one, it might not be better than the best European one. The F-22 Raptor is the only aircraft that performs better than the Eurofighter Typhoon in an air superiority capacity. From what I've read I don't think even the JSF is up to the Eurofighter Typhoon's level in the air superiority role. The JSF isn't designed to be a pure air superiority aircraft, it's, as its name suggests, designed to be multi-role. The JSF would certainly be a huge improvement for Israel over F-15Is and F-16Is though. An Israeli pilot plus a JSF would probably be better than a Saudi Pilot with a Eurofighter Typhoon, but with equal pilots, ONLY the F-22 Raptor is better than the Eurofighter Typhoon from what I've read. This may well be right; certainly the DERA study suggests it is. Summing this subject I think that none of us could answer the hypothetical question about air force superiority in the Middle East in case the Arabs will have Eurofighters. There are lots of hypotheticals. For example, if SA is buying Eurofighters they will also probably buy an anti-runway cruise missile in the Apache / SCALP / Storm Shadow family, which might enable them to shut down Israeli airbases. It is clear though that the Egyptian army, and maybe also the Saudi Army pose a real threat on Israel. This is not new. My understanding is the Saudi army is rather small. Dunno about the Egyptian army. -- A: top posting Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet?
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#7
September 13th 03, 06:03 PM
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On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 16:38:25 +0100, Big Dave wrote:
Aaaah but isn't the AIM 54 being retired as the only plane that can carry it is the F14 which is also nearing it max flying hours so will also be retired? Aparently, Iran (the only F-14 operator apart from the USA) is building its own copy of the AIM 54. -- A: top posting Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet?
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#8
September 13th 03, 07:04 PM
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On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 16:05:03 GMT, Passerby wrote:
I hope that every country surrounding Israel will purchase full complements of those EF2000. It will deplete their budgets and will render their airforces useless without Israelis haveing to shoot a single antiaircraft missile. According to all reports EF2000 is the most expensive heap of non-airworthy trash ever built. Which reports are these, then? Do some of them actually refer to the aircraft by its correct name, and not an old name that hasn't been current for years, by any chance? -- A: top posting Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet?
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#9
September 13th 03, 07:09 PM
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On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:56:58 -0400, Peter Kemp
The Meteor is still a few years from deployment though, but when it arrives, it should handily outrange AMRAAM which is the longest spear in the IAF armoury (Derby is alleged to have a much shorter range). Incidently, why is Israel naming this missile after an English city? Why do you think that future American or Israeli made missiles won't have those capabilities? Because there are no current projects publicly announced that have the capabilities of the Meteor. Could there be one in development? Maybe, but there's no evidence for it. IIRC a successor to the Phoenix was planned, but was scrapped in the 1990s. -- A: top posting Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet?
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#10
September 13th 03, 07:14 PM
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Steven DeMonnin wrote:
The real Asymmetry is in the quality of the pilots. I don't know the Israeli training tempo, but I read a piece by Victor Hanson that said it was comparable to the US training tempo, and that most dictatorial states have a training regimen that is about 5% of the time the US devotes to its pilots. In military training, marginal quantitative difference can lead to huge qualitative differences. Not to mention ,of course, the ground troops maintaining the planes. Those brand new Eurofighters are going to be combat-effective for a month, maybe two, and if they go into a heavy training regimen, it'll be shorter than that. And since they'll be "new" planes, they're going to have the normal teething problems, without a good crew to do the updates and fixes that any plane suffers off of the assemby line. -- Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations. Slam on brakes accordingly.
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