Kerry is a pilot?

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...
Unless Kerry can get the millions (1.2M to 3.8M...so much for a 550K
"margin") of illegal aliens back into the voting booth like Gore's team
did.

Would you care to cite any evidence for that assertion?

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message ...

I'm sorry, I should have said the CONTENT was fairly accurate, not the
attribution. I have no doubt that the cite of Tyler, Tytler, Tittie, or
whomever is wrong. And as I said, the second part is really bogus
regardless of who wrote it, in either the 18th or 20th century.

So, all in all, I agree with your conclusion.

Ah, now I understand what you were getting at. Sorry -- I thought you
meant the quote was valid, but the date of the quote was in question
(which seemed kind of a strange argument). I should've read more
carefully.

I agree that a democracy is doomed when its citizens start "voting
themselves largesse from the public treasury." That part seems true
enough.

I think a large part of the appeal of the alleged Tytler quote is due
to the implication that an expert in world history from the early
1800s *predicted* the United States would suffer from moral decay and
"loose fiscal policy," which will be evident by the masses always
voting for whomever promises them the most kickbacks from the public
treasury. Further, he supposedly predicted this would happen in about
200 years! Amazingly this is just about equal to the age of the
United States (especially considering the fact that this quote seems
to have made its first appearance in the 1980s).

If, as I contend, Tytler had nothing to do with this quote, then it
becomes *much* less compelling. I doubt this quote would be at all
popular if, instead of Tytler, it was said to have been written by
someone in the 1980s -- especially if they had no particular knowledge
of world history as appears to be the case since the alleged quote
does not accurately describe what it's supposed to describe: the fall
of the Athenian Republic.

If instead of "Alexander Fraser Tytler, Scottish History Professor in
1801 wrote the following...," the quote were to read, "I was having
some beers with my cousin Hank last week and he said the
following...," then I really doubt anyone would think this quote was
worth the bandwidth used to send it along.

I guess my point here is "authorship counts." Note also how popular
the murder-rate comparison is. I doubt those numbers would be as
widely circulated if someone hadn't slipped Professor Olson's name in
front of them. People look to authorship in an effort to judge
whether an idea is likely to be true.

So if Tytler isn't the source of the quote (and I'm pretty darn sure
he isn't), suddenly it loses just about all of its credibility.

-Mike P.

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:El6Tb.153717$Rc4.1208658@attbi_s54...
"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...
Unless Kerry can get the millions (1.2M to 3.8M...so much for a 550K
"margin") of illegal aliens back into the voting booth like Gore's team
did.

Would you care to cite any evidence for that assertion?

Numbers from the INS as matched with Social service access around the
country (particularly CA) which runs about 25% of IA's. Transpose that to
voter roles.

Roughly 6M to 19M IA's times 25% usage. If voter roles hold to that
estimate, particularly since the advent of "Motor Voter", it gives the
numbers mentioned.

With all the stink about CA giving IA's drivers licenses it's a moot point:
they already have them.

You didn't think "Motor Voter" was for convenience, did you? And why does
Social Services encourage recipients to use every available service?

Bush's idiotic "amnesty" is generating scrutiny that's indicating the
numbers (estimates only) might be rather LOW. A site called
votefraud2000.com did a study right after the 2000 election, May.June, 2001
(unfortunately it's no longer online) that covered the illegal aliens as
well as voting by dead people, people long since moved from the area, etc.,
etc.

How many DO YOU think voted, and for whom?

"Mike Powell" wrote in message
om...
"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

I'm sorry, I should have said the CONTENT was fairly accurate, not the
attribution. I have no doubt that the cite of Tyler, Tytler, Tittie, or
whomever is wrong. And as I said, the second part is really bogus
regardless of who wrote it, in either the 18th or 20th century.

So, all in all, I agree with your conclusion.

Ah, now I understand what you were getting at. Sorry -- I thought you
meant the quote was valid, but the date of the quote was in question
(which seemed kind of a strange argument). I should've read more
carefully.

I agree that a democracy is doomed when its citizens start "voting
themselves largesse from the public treasury." That part seems true
enough.

I think a large part of the appeal of the alleged Tytler quote is due
to the implication that an expert in world history from the early
1800s *predicted* the United States would suffer from moral decay and
"loose fiscal policy," which will be evident by the masses always
voting for whomever promises them the most kickbacks from the public
treasury. Further, he supposedly predicted this would happen in about
200 years!

Some were quicker, some took a lot longer.

Amazingly this is just about equal to the age of the
United States (especially considering the fact that this quote seems
to have made its first appearance in the 1980s).

I think Livy made generally the same point about the Roman Empire.


If, as I contend, Tytler had nothing to do with this quote, then it
becomes *much* less compelling. I doubt this quote would be at all
popular if, instead of Tytler, it was said to have been written by
someone in the 1980s -- especially if they had no particular knowledge
of world history as appears to be the case since the alleged quote
does not accurately describe what it's supposed to describe: the fall
of the Athenian Republic.

I'm guessing he (or whoever) was referring to the Roman "Bread and Circus"
debacle.

If instead of "Alexander Fraser Tytler, Scottish History Professor in
1801 wrote the following...," the quote were to read, "I was having
some beers with my cousin Hank last week and he said the
following...," then I really doubt anyone would think this quote was
worth the bandwidth used to send it along.

I guess my point here is "authorship counts." Note also how popular
the murder-rate comparison is. I doubt those numbers would be as
widely circulated if someone hadn't slipped Professor Olson's name in
front of them. People look to authorship in an effort to judge
whether an idea is likely to be true.

I'm not so interested in authorship (argument from authority) as whether a
quote conforms to facts of reality.


So if Tytler isn't the source of the quote (and I'm pretty darn sure
he isn't), suddenly it loses just about all of its credibility.

Not really; does historical FACT support the firt part of the quote?
Certainly the second part DOES NOT.

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...


Bush's idiotic "amnesty" is generating scrutiny that's indicating the
numbers (estimates only) might be rather LOW. A site called
votefraud2000.com did a study right after the 2000 election, May.June,
2001
(unfortunately it's no longer online) that covered the illegal aliens as
well as voting by dead people, people long since moved from the area,
etc.,
etc.

How many DO YOU think voted, and for whom?

Trotski ruined the Mexican economy and it has been curse since then.

More socilism is what will make America into Mexico, not guest workers.

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:El6Tb.153717$Rc4.1208658@attbi_s54...
"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...
Unless Kerry can get the millions (1.2M to 3.8M...so much for a 550K
"margin") of illegal aliens back into the voting booth like Gore's
team
did.

Would you care to cite any evidence for that assertion?

Numbers from the INS as matched with Social service access around the
country (particularly CA) which runs about 25% of IA's. Transpose that to
voter roles.

In all honesty, I had to read that twice to convince myself that you're not
joking about the extrapolation to voter rolls. What you say reads like a
parody of right-wing disinformation campaigns.

You cite no evidence whatsoever about illegal aliens voting--not even a
single documented instance! Instead, you mention a statistic about the
percent of illegal aliens who use social services (which you cite no source
for, but let's assume it's an accurate figure). You then propose to PRETEND
that that statistic is a complete different statistic, concerning voter
fraud instead of concerning social-service use. And for some reason, you
call this pretense "transposing".

It just goes to show that if you're willing to forego any semblance of
intellectual rigor, you can convince yourself of pretty much anything you
want to believe.

--Gary

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...


Bush's idiotic "amnesty" is generating scrutiny that's indicating the
numbers (estimates only) might be rather LOW. A site called
votefraud2000.com did a study right after the 2000 election, May.June,
2001
(unfortunately it's no longer online) that covered the illegal aliens as
well as voting by dead people, people long since moved from the area,
etc.,
etc.

How many DO YOU think voted, and for whom?

Trotski ruined the Mexican economy and it has been curse since then.

What exactly did Trotsky have to do with the Mexican economy?

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:SlfTb.207162$na.337411@attbi_s04...
"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:El6Tb.153717$Rc4.1208658@attbi_s54...
"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...
Unless Kerry can get the millions (1.2M to 3.8M...so much for a 550K
"margin") of illegal aliens back into the voting booth like Gore's
team
did.

Would you care to cite any evidence for that assertion?

Numbers from the INS as matched with Social service access around the
country (particularly CA) which runs about 25% of IA's. Transpose that
to
voter roles.

In all honesty, I had to read that twice to convince myself that you're
not
joking about the extrapolation to voter rolls. What you say reads like a
parody of right-wing disinformation campaigns.

Too bad multiple reads don't correspond to comprehension.


You cite no evidence whatsoever about illegal aliens voting--not even a
single documented instance! Instead, you mention a statistic about the
percent of illegal aliens who use social services (which you cite no
source
for, but let's assume it's an accurate figure). You then propose to
PRETEND
that that statistic is a complete different statistic, concerning voter
fraud instead of concerning social-service use. And for some reason, you
call this pretense "transposing".

It just goes to show that if you're willing to forego any semblance of
intellectual rigor, you can convince yourself of pretty much anything you
want to believe.


I said they were ESTIMATES ****head. I also said the ESTIMATES raise
QUESTIONS. Some rigor you achieve in YOUR disinformation efforts.

Go get started in trying to steal the next election.

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...


Bush's idiotic "amnesty" is generating scrutiny that's indicating the
numbers (estimates only) might be rather LOW. A site called
votefraud2000.com did a study right after the 2000 election, May.June,
2001
(unfortunately it's no longer online) that covered the illegal aliens
as
well as voting by dead people, people long since moved from the area,
etc.,
etc.

How many DO YOU think voted, and for whom?

Trotski ruined the Mexican economy and it has been curse since then.

What exactly did Trotsky have to do with the Mexican economy?

Trotsky destroyed the Mexican economy with socialism.

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...


Bush's idiotic "amnesty" is generating scrutiny that's indicating
the
numbers (estimates only) might be rather LOW. A site called
votefraud2000.com did a study right after the 2000 election,
May.June,
2001
(unfortunately it's no longer online) that covered the illegal
aliens
as
well as voting by dead people, people long since moved from the
area,
etc.,
etc.

How many DO YOU think voted, and for whom?

Trotski ruined the Mexican economy and it has been curse since then.

What exactly did Trotsky have to do with the Mexican economy?

Trotsky destroyed the Mexican economy with socialism.

Trotsky, huh? Not Marx or whoever it was that imposed socialism on Mexico
from within?