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Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 17th 08, 05:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
gliderguynj
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Posts: 34
Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

On Apr 17, 12:32*pm, B A R R Y wrote:
Then there's ethical...



Well said Sir. The passenger is entrusting their life in your hands.
When I take a passenger up in a glider, I understand what a huge
responsibility that is. Reminds me of the Cokehead pilot that killed
that singer Brandy? flying to the Bahamas over gross and impaired on
drugs. He might have had the same reasoning...ah just a bit over
gross, so the climb out will be sluggish....

I think this is a good thread.

Doug
  #12  
Old April 17th 08, 06:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
gatt[_3_]
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Posts: 193
Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

tman wrote:
Flown C172's for quite a while, and never had anybody in the back.
Now I'm planning on quite a trip, with 2 pax and luggage.


You shouldn't be scared, you should be confident. (And above all safe.)

In more cavalier flying days I have done this once or twice, right at or
slightly over gross, in a 172 on an ideal day. For the purpose of
discussion let's assume you're going to do it.

Where's your CG and how will it influence takeoff and climbout? What
happens if the engine quits on departure? How much extra runway do
you have, and what does your density altitude look like? An airplane
that is overgross might still perform better in straight climbout than
an undergross airplane on hot, humid day. If you've got 11,000 feet of
runway ahead of you with the elevation at near sea level, and no
obstacles to clear, and it's cold and dry, that will help. If you're
going to be going over mountains or it's turbulent, you need to know
what to expect.

My biggest concern here would be the "never had anybody in back" factor.
When you launch and land with four adults on board, even under gross
it's a different feel. If you've experienced that and you already know
what to expect with an airplane near max gross, you will be able to
recognize how the airplane is handling differently once you're over
gross. Without that previous experience it would be pretty tough to
tell whether you're experiencing a situation caused by being over-gross,
or something that feels normal with four adults on board. The
additional stress and distraction on the PIC could be more of a factor
than that placed on the airframe.

Finally, I personally -hate- feeling like I'm a half-ass pilot or that I
just put my pax at the edge of my envelope without their knowledge. If
they're all aware of it and they understand, that's one thing, but if
something happens you might end up feeling like a total heel, or worse.

If I were going to do this flight I would run around the pattern a few
times with pax in back so you get a feel for what's supposed to happen.

Keep your airspeeds up, keep your pitch and bank rates low, watch your
angle of attack (!!!), stay coordinated and fly like you're carrying a
load of nitroglycerin. Work your CG figures for both takeoff and
landing, and also empty in case you have to divert. If you're "scared"
you're more likely make mistakes.

Having said all that, I don't think I'd make the flight myself. But I
have before, in a 172 at maybe 40lbs over gross, and nothing broke.

-c
  #13  
Old April 17th 08, 06:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
WingFlaps
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Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

On Apr 18, 5:25*am, gatt wrote:


Having said all that, I don't think I'd make the flight myself. *But I
have before, in a 172 at maybe 40lbs over gross, and nothing broke.


This is ridiculous. How on earth do you think ferry flights work,
they can be way over MTOW but the wings don't rip off do they? A 172
it's not going to notice a measely 40lbs over MTOW unless the COG is
wrong.

Cheers

  #14  
Old April 17th 08, 06:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
WingFlaps
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Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

On Apr 17, 9:53*pm, tman inv@lid wrote:
Flown C172's for quite a while, and never had anybody in the back.
Now I'm planning on quite a trip, with 2 pax and luggage.

When I fill the fuel to the *tabs*, calc everyone's weight honestly and
consider baggage -- I'm 75 lbs over the 2450 gross on departure. *Maybe
100 over gross if I assume a "lie about weight" factor or some
inaccuracy with filling the tanks. *Now I'm scratching my head about
just how risky this is. *I know (others) have pushed over gross in these
planes way more under worse conditions, and have almost always gotten
away with it. *I'm inclined to just do it, and be cognizant that it will
perform differently, i.e. don't expect the same picture on climbout that
you would when solo.


Hang on a moment 2 pax and baggage and you are over a 2450 172 MTOW?
I've done a few miles with 2 PAX and never had a weight problem.

How much baggage are they bringing?
How much do they weigh?

Cheers

  #15  
Old April 17th 08, 06:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Tman
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Posts: 68
Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

Dudley Henriques wrote:
Tell you what; instead of my "advising you" on what to do specifically
with this flight, let me suggest to you that you run a weight and
balance for this aircraft at full tanks, THEN run the same pax and
baggage loading figuring 1/4 tanks, just to see what this does to the cg.


I did. CG is pretty much center of the acceptable range.
C172 410lbs in the front seats, 170lbs in the back, 30lbs in the baggage
area, fuel to tabs -- CG is "good". Same situation, empty fuel. CG
good too.

A lot of ppl are talking about CG issues. Hey maybe I better check my
math before I fly this thing!
  #16  
Old April 17th 08, 06:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
gatt[_3_]
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Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

WingFlaps wrote:

Having said all that, I don't think I'd make the flight myself. But I
have before, in a 172 at maybe 40lbs over gross, and nothing broke.


This is ridiculous. How on earth do you think ferry flights work,
they can be way over MTOW but the wings don't rip off do they? A 172
it's not going to notice a measely 40lbs over MTOW unless the COG is
wrong.


Tell it to the insurance company or your passengers if you prang the
landing because, say, you've never carried passengers in the back of a
C-172 before and, say, you hit a windshear on final.

Ferry pilots don't carry unwitting passengers in back when they're
overgross.

-c
  #17  
Old April 17th 08, 06:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
WingFlaps
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Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

On Apr 18, 5:52*am, gatt wrote:
WingFlaps wrote:
Having said all that, I don't think I'd make the flight myself. *But I
have before, in a 172 at maybe 40lbs over gross, and nothing broke.


This is ridiculous. *How on earth do you think ferry flights work,
they can be way over MTOW but the wings don't rip off do they? A 172
it's not going to notice a measely 40lbs over MTOW unless the COG is
wrong.


Tell it to the insurance company or your passengers if you prang the
landing because, say, you've never carried passengers in the back of a
C-172 before and, say, you hit a windshear on final.



Are you saying you don't do a MAUW test flight in your training?

Cheers
  #18  
Old April 17th 08, 07:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
WingFlaps
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Posts: 621
Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

On Apr 18, 5:52*am, gatt wrote:
WingFlaps wrote:
Having said all that, I don't think I'd make the flight myself. *But I
have before, in a 172 at maybe 40lbs over gross, and nothing broke.


This is ridiculous. *How on earth do you think ferry flights work,
they can be way over MTOW but the wings don't rip off do they? A 172
it's not going to notice a measely 40lbs over MTOW unless the COG is
wrong.


Tell it to the insurance company or your passengers if you prang the
landing because, say, you've never carried passengers in the back of a
C-172 before and, say, you hit a windshear on final.

Ferry pilots don't carry unwitting passengers in back when they're
overgross.


Look, lets try to put this in perspective. We are not talking about a
big weight. We are taling about a 1700# plane with a 40# excess
payload. Provided the COG is good, you would not probably notice 40
lbs over MTOW from MTOW. The G loading has only increased by less than
2%. That means that apart from a reduction in climb performance
handling will be OK. He's stated that the climb out is not an issue
and by the time he lands he'll be well under MTOW. As for carrying
unwitting passengers, I believe commercial operators do it more often
than they would admit to or even realize (given the average weight
increase of passengers)...

Cheers
  #19  
Old April 17th 08, 07:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 9,169
Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

tman writes:

Risky?


http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photoga...loaded-172.wmv
  #20  
Old April 17th 08, 07:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]
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Posts: 597
Default Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

tman wrote:
I did. CG is pretty much center of the acceptable range.
C172 410lbs in the front seats, 170lbs in the back, 30lbs in the baggage
area, fuel to tabs -- CG is "good". Same situation, empty fuel. CG
good too.

A lot of ppl are talking about CG issues. Hey maybe I better check my
math before I fly this thing!



That's because CG is particularly critical when you're heavy. That's one of the
reasons I used to prefer the PA-32 over the C-210 for my runs to the islands.
The PA-32s all have this huge baggage compartment aft of the engine but forward
of the passenger compartment. It allowed me to stuff it full of the heaviest
crap I had to carry. Then loading all the beef in the back would leave me with
a quite acceptable CG. 6 people, baggage, full fuel (didn't mean to do that)
and hot summer day. Slow climbing but I eventually waddled up to 8,000 feet and
had a completely normal flight from that point on.

OTOH, I once took four folks down to Florida in a modified C-172 that had 180 HP
and a constant speed prop. The lardasses in the back threw me into an aft CG
situation that was acceptable until I got 20 degrees of flaps down; then I
didn't have enough trim authority to get all the pressure off the yoke. I had
to muscle it in... a rather uncomfortable situation for a fingertip kind of
flier. Sure did flare easily though...

Somebody said something about you've never carried four passengers in a C-172?
If that's the case I take back what I said earlier about making the flight. You
definitely want to take a few rides around the local area with some folks in the
back... it's not the same as just 2 guys in the front.

The other thing to consider is the very limited baggage space of the C-172.
When you pack it, you want the load as forward as you can make it. As the arm
gets longer, it's amazing the effect of weight back there.

I'm not much for experimenting heavily (pardon the pun) when I have only limited
experience. Will the C-172 fly 50 or even 100 lbs overgrossed? I know it will.
I also know I wouldn't want an inexperienced pilot behind the controls when I
did it. And a cold day would be helpful.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com


 




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