If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Curious about the "Terrible - Especially with two Doctors" comment. I am
conteplating a partnership in a '75 Mooney M20C with a Doctor. Please elaborate. Thanks !! Jon Kraus PP-ASEL-IA Student Aircraft Purchaser WARREN1157 wrote: Just my $0.02. 1969 Aero Commander 100, cheap airplane only owner - Best 1963 182, Started 4 partners, bought them out - Bad. After I bought them out - Better 1963 Mooney, 1 other partner - Better 1980 172 five person club - Terrible - Especially with two Doctors Sole ownership of an older clean airplane is the best for Me without a close second. Just my 2¢ worth |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Curious about the "Terrible - Especially with two Doctors" comment. I am
conteplating a partnership in a '75 Mooney M20C with a Doctor. Please elaborate. Thanks !! A doctor as a partner couldn't be better. He has the disposable income to pay his share of the expenses but doesn't have the free time to fly. What more could you ask for ? --- Ken Reed http:///www.dentalzzz.com |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
"Dude" wrote in message ...
If you want complexity, read the ourplane contract. Sure 'nuff. Or, try to figure out how to untangle yourself from a partnership with a lunatic without outright walking away from your share of the plane. Well, if you have a good partnership agreement there may be options. You can't plan for every possibility but you can plan for some. In a 2-way partnership you have no choice, but in my 5-way there is a provision for 4 people to force a buyout of 1, or 3 people to force a buyout of 2. Leasebacks are actually pretty simple. The main rule is that if you cannot afford to own the plane without the leaseback, then you shouldn't go there. That way, anytime it seems you are going the wrong direction, you can pull out. It may take several tries to find the right FBO. In this sense I guess I would agree. I think the biggest factor in the fractionals is the same as for bizjets- it's both cheaper and *better* than outright ownership. I still can't see how its really cheaper than a partnership. It has benefits that a partnership does not, but I don't see the extra cost being worth it. Cheaper than sole-ownership. Partnerships are definitely cheaper. Ever look at how much one of those programs actually costs when you're done with it? A small slice of an SR-22 could buy and own a whole used 182. Not the same plane to be sure but puts it in some perspective. It costs more than that, the total cost seems pretty well disguised in these deals to me, and geting out is toughter than selling your plane at a loss. That is the bad thing about a partnership. When you figure out one of the partners is a loon, you will have a hard time selling your share. In agreements I've seen, you put a fuse on this so that if you can't sell the share within XX days of advertising it then either he has to buy it or the whole plane has to be put up for sale. So, you think that the partners would not want to be in the deal if the FBO had carte blanche to fix just about anything? And the FBO would not want to be in the deal if they could get stuck with a big bill on a fixed price budget? That is a tough nut. I see the fixed time as the main bugaboo in the present fractionals. The contracts I read seem to leave the owners in a lurch at the end. If the FBO doesn't provide a blanket guarantee of an airworthy and complete airplane as purchased, then we're right back to what in my experience is the leading cause of partnership disagreement: how to maintain the bird when something goes downhill. No investor would fund a plan where the FBO is liable for maintenance overages on a used plane, it just doesn't make sense. You might as well buy the plane and make better margins renting it out. Then there's the buyout issue. I agree with you that the current arrangement makes it look deceptively cheap to own an SR-22. Well, for four years, anyway. Then they turn the bird over to you and say, "hey guys, good luck, SEEYA!" I suspect when some of these contracts run out there will be some guys crying about being left upside down with a seriously-depreciated plane. Though to be fair this isn't that different from being in a partnership. place farther away than you want to fly to yourself. If someone can build a really broad network this could become a huge selling point, as it has for places like Moorings who've been doing this kind of thing with sailboats for decades. There is a limited market to me -Those that would really like the wide network. None of my jobs ever would have let me do that, and I try not to go commercial except overseas or skiing. Sailing is a lot different to me, but you could be right. You think the market's smaller because you're not in it, I think it's bigger because I am. Go figger. It's worth noting that the sailboat leaseback programs have been around for a long time, and are still regarded with widespread suspicion. After 4-5 years in a charter fleet a lot of the boats come out looking ten years older than they are owing to the constant use. Owners can plan on dramatically higher maintenance costs than they would if they just owned it. My personal theory is that the programs last because the supply of suckers is self-renewing. They're similar to fractionals/leasebacks in some ways but not in others, the analogy isn't perfect. Best, -cwk. |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
You don't want to do that.
Without carrying insurance that covers rental use, you would would not be covered for liability. Even if the renter carries liability insurance for non-owned aircraft, if he/she crashes and someone sues YOU, your insurance carrier will deny the claim if the rental use is not covered. The cost of insurance will depend mostly on the type and value of the aircraft. Plan to spend between 10% and 6% of the hull value of the aircraft annually, plus another $1500 to $2500 for liability coverage. So, let's say you have a $50,000 Cessna 172. IF (and that's a big IF) you can get insurance for rental use, you'll pay around $4000 for hull damage and probably $2000 for liability coverage. Many insurance companies give better rates for fleets so you'll probably get a better rate by putting the aircraft on lease with an FBO. J. Howard Aviation Insurance Underwriter "Murphy" wrote in message ... I am thinking of buying an airplane....I want to rent it when it is not in use to recoup some of the cost of buying the plane. How hard is it to do this? What are the insurance costs? How often do I need to get it checked out by an aviation mechanic? How much is the maintenece? Do I have to go through an FBO? Or can I just place a classified ad....eg. "plane for rent...$50 an hour". As for insurance, you could insure it just for yourself to fly, and then require your renters to carry renter/borrower insurance for the full hull value. |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
THat was kind of what I was thinking.... Thanks.
Jon Ken Reed wrote: Curious about the "Terrible - Especially with two Doctors" comment. I am conteplating a partnership in a '75 Mooney M20C with a Doctor. Please elaborate. Thanks !! A doctor as a partner couldn't be better. He has the disposable income to pay his share of the expenses but doesn't have the free time to fly. What more could you ask for ? --- Ken Reed http:///www.dentalzzz.com |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Curious about the "Terrible - Especially with two Doctors" comment. I am conteplating a partnership in a '75 Mooney M20C with a Doctor. Please elaborate. Thanks !! A doctor as a partner couldn't be better. He has the disposable income to pay his share of the expenses but doesn't have the free time to fly. What more could you ask for ? Well, you could ask for a partner with similar ideas about how to use and maintain the aircraft. Most of the decisions you have to make with your partner will be related to maintenance, most of the rest are related to upgrades. If one partner has lots of cash and wants to pay overtime rates to have the plane fixed -now-, and the other partner wants to wait and ferry the airplane to another airport with lower labor rates at his convenience, there's going to be conflict. All that has nothing to do with whether the partner is a doctor, of course, that part is just ignorant doctor-bashing. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
"Howard" wrote in message ...
Many insurance companies give better rates for fleets so you'll probably get a better rate by putting the aircraft on lease with an FBO. A friend of mine tried this and found that no one would write a policy for him will less than 3 planes. I"m not sure what agent he used. Most of the FBOs around here have it worked out where the owner can purchase the insurance with the FBO and the owner gets the discount of a fleet but is the "owner" of the policy. -Robert |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Actually, the FBO is the named insured under the policy. The aircraft owner
would be named as an aircraft lessor on the policy and granted addtional insured status. The FBO, being the named insured, still have total control over the insurance. The lessor has no authority to amend the coverage on his aircraft except to take the aircraft off lease and purchase his own coverage elsewhere. J. Howard "Robert M. Gary" wrote in message m... "Howard" wrote in message ... Many insurance companies give better rates for fleets so you'll probably get a better rate by putting the aircraft on lease with an FBO. A friend of mine tried this and found that no one would write a policy for him will less than 3 planes. I"m not sure what agent he used. Most of the FBOs around here have it worked out where the owner can purchase the insurance with the FBO and the owner gets the discount of a fleet but is the "owner" of the policy. -Robert |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Homebuilt Aircraft Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) | Ron Wanttaja | Home Built | 0 | May 1st 04 07:29 PM |
Looking for Cessna Caravan pilots | [email protected] | Owning | 9 | April 1st 04 02:54 AM |
"I Want To FLY!"-(Youth) My store to raise funds for flying lessons | Curtl33 | General Aviation | 7 | January 9th 04 11:35 PM |
Homebuilt Aircraft Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) | Ron Wanttaja | Home Built | 0 | October 2nd 03 03:07 AM |
Homebuilt Aircraft Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) | Ron Wanttaja | Home Built | 4 | August 7th 03 05:12 AM |