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#11
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("Ron Natalie" wrote)
Really? I can only think of this happenning one time bofore when a meat bomb took out a cherokee. Didn't a person "land" on a prop - maybe in Europe/Russia - last year? Seem to recall that story. Montblack |
#12
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In article ,
"Montblack" wrote: Didn't a person "land" on a prop - maybe in Europe/Russia - last year? From memory: A jumper landed close in front of a running jump plane, parachute went into the prop. I think this has happened twice..one fatality, one serious injury. At least one jumper hitting jump plane during descent...both landed okay. At an airshow a jumper hit the airplane they had exited....was a biplane...at least one fatal. A jumper in freefall hit a glider in England within the last few years, 2 fatal. A jumper if freefall hit a Cherokee (?)..jumper injured, all in a/c fatal. There are about 3 millions jumps each year in the US...with a large percentage of them done over/onto an airport. The jumper/aircraft collision isn't a big problem numbers wise. As far as the Deland thing, I can easily see how it could happen without a gross error on anyones part. The "upward" visibilty from the cockpit isn't great in most airplanes with a cabin roof. A jump plane will probably be descending steeply, especially a turbine powered airplane. A jumper descends even steeper than the aircraft does. It's very possible the pilot couldn't see the jumper, and if the jumper was going away from the airplane he wouldn't be able to see it...and probably woudn't hear it either. The big question for me is why they both ended up in the same airspace. -- Dale L. Falk There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing around with airplanes. http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html |
#13
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On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:55:44 -0400, Ron Natalie
wrote in : : Larry Dighera wrote: Of course, FARs* require pilots to obtain _ALL_ available information before flight. Given today's pop-up Temporary Flight Restrictions, it is even more important to check NOTAMs during the preflight briefing. The FSS briefer or DUATS should have issued the NOTAM related to the parachute activity. And if ATC is providing Radar Advisory Service, the controller providing traffic advisories would have warned of the hot drop zone. If this is a regularly active drop zone, it gets published in the A/FD and perhaps a parachute symbol on the chart, and there no longer is any NOTAM for the briefer to report. Here's the FAR: Sec. 105.25 Parachute operations in designated airspace (a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft-- [...] (3) Except as provided in paragraph (c) and (d) of this section, within or into Class E or G airspace area unless the air traffic control facility having jurisdiction over the airspace at the first intended exit altitude is notified of the parachute operation no earlier than 24 hours before or no later than 1 hour before the parachute operation begins. [...] (c) For the purposes of paragraph (a)(3) of this section, air traffic control facilities may accept a written notification from an organization that conducts parachute operations and lists the scheduled series of parachute operations to be conducted over a stated period of time not longer than 12 calendar months. The notification must contain the information prescribed by Sec. 105.15(a) of this part, identify the responsible persons associated with that parachute operation, and be submitted at least 15 days, but not more than 30 days, before the parachute operation begins. The FAA may revoke the acceptance of the notification for any failure of the organization conducting the parachute operations to comply with its requirements. [...] They expect you to check the chart and A/FD as part of your preflight planning. Yes. That is required for every flight. ATC should still issue the NOTAM as part of the preflight briefing. ATC, workload permitting, is always a good thing to try, but not foolproof. True; ATC isn't required to alert pilots receiving Flight Following services to an active drop zone, but in my experience, they seem to make an effort to do so. |
#14
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Of course, FARs* require pilots to obtain _ALL_ available information
before flight. Given today's pop-up Temporary Flight Restrictions, it is even more important to check NOTAMs during the preflight briefing. The FSS briefer or DUATS should have issued the NOTAM related to the parachute activity. And if ATC is providing Radar Advisory Service, the controller providing traffic advisories would have warned of the hot drop zone. Well, the FSS flight briefer I spoke with was located somewhere in Northern Georgia, where we had gotten gas. He never mentioned anything about skydiving activity. And we used VFR flight following all the way. ATC never mentioned anything about skydiving, either. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#15
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In your case, you weren't experienced enough to be comfortable with it, yet "it all worked out okay" because the jump pilot made sure it did. It wasn't just coincidence. I never said it was. Jump plane pilots are some of the hardest working pilots I've ever met (along with tow-plane pilots), and I imagine that the pilots flying out of Deland -- one of the largest jump schools in the world -- are considered to be the "best of the best." Which, of course, doesn't take away from the tragedy of the accident. Everyone in an operation that size is "playing the odds" -- and on that day they lost, plain and simple. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#16
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"Dudley Henriques" dhenriques@noware .net wrote in message
link.net... I remember like it was yesterday; standing at the Blues Com Trailer with John Patton of the Blue Angels at the Reading Show in 74. Tony Less took the Diamond straight up for the Diamond Loop. Both Patton and I saw the Cherokee 140 at the same time. John had a hot mike in his had and direct contact with Tony in Blue 1. The formation went right past the Cherokee before either of us could speak. : We checked. All the NOTAMS were intact. http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/hntoi.asp "Over the past three years the Red Arrows' protected airspace was infringed on 14 occasions. This not only posed real danger to all the aircraft involved but also, in some cases, denied thousands of members of the public the chance to see the team perform. " Paul |
#17
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In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote: True; ATC isn't required to alert pilots receiving Flight Following services to an active drop zone, but in my experience, they seem to make an effort to do so. It seems to depend on the individual controller. I work with Approach at my DZ, some of the controllers are very helpful calling traffic, advising other traffic of where the DZ is while some simply acknowledge when I sign on and that's the last I hear from them. -- Dale L. Falk There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing around with airplanes. http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html |
#18
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Once its on the chart, and in the green book, its no longer on the
NOTAM. Its not the briefers job. Its the pilots. IF you flight follow and are on approach's frequency, you WILL hear "One minute to jumpers" and "Jumpers away" for the applicable areas. The jump plane is required to notify the responsible approach/center for the area at those times. I am acutely aware of several active and former dropzones near me. Two are at private fields, and the other two are on public airports. Dave Jay Honeck wrote: Of course, FARs* require pilots to obtain _ALL_ available information before flight. Given today's pop-up Temporary Flight Restrictions, it is even more important to check NOTAMs during the preflight briefing. The FSS briefer or DUATS should have issued the NOTAM related to the parachute activity. And if ATC is providing Radar Advisory Service, the controller providing traffic advisories would have warned of the hot drop zone. Well, the FSS flight briefer I spoke with was located somewhere in Northern Georgia, where we had gotten gas. He never mentioned anything about skydiving activity. And we used VFR flight following all the way. ATC never mentioned anything about skydiving, either. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#19
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Just because an operation is outside your comfort zone or experience
level Jay does not mean it's unsafe or reckless. Hmmm, maybe true. But I do not like to be cut-off in the pattern, being over taken, never mind somebody close on my tail where I can not see them. That makes me nervous. A jump pilot has more experience than me, but he/she can take in consideration that there are lesser pilots flying out there. If a pilot becomes nervous then mistakes are going to happen. This is about the same as people keeping their dogs(ie pit-bull terriers, rottweilers etc) unleashed, it is safe to their opinion. It makes other people nervous. -Kees |
#20
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On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:46:21 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
dhenriques@noware .net wrote: snip Even Notams don't work sometimes. I remember like it was yesterday; standing at the Blues Com Trailer with John Patton of the Blue Angels at the Reading Show in 74. Tony Less took the Diamond straight up for the Diamond Loop. Both Patton and I saw the Cherokee 140 at the same time. John had a hot mike in his had and direct contact with Tony in Blue 1. The formation went right past the Cherokee before either of us could speak. We discovered in the post flight brief that none of the team saw the Cherokee, and to this day, I honestly believe the pilot in the Cherokee must have seen the team go by him. We judged he was close enough that his pants were stained when he landed at where ever he was headed. There are NOTAMS issued on the Blues performance times, and the field is closed for traffic during demonstrations. We checked. All the NOTAMS were intact. The times were correct. The guy in the Cherokee didn't read the NOTAMS and wasn't advised either. He simply wandered in and flew right through the restricted airspace unannounced and uninvited. It happens!!!! Now that is scary! There is always at least one who never gets the notification. Last spring we had a pancake breakfast. (OK, last spring or the one before) and it was a pretty good turn out. Lots of planes. They received a call up in the terminal building that such and such a Cherokee pilot should call the tower over at MBS. Seems as the guy went merrily chugging right through their airspace about a 1000 AGL right in front of an airliner who had to take evasive action and go around. To say they weren't happy would be an understatement. Last Fall before the elections the President was going to be in Saginaw. There was a TFR in place (centered on MBS) and well advertised. We knew about it nearly a week ahead. Actually we were just one mile outside the no fly zone so we could go straight out, or straight back home while talking to ATC. Pilot: Ahhhh... MBS Approach, I have a jet off my wing tip. What does that mean? What's going on? MBS: unintelligible Pilot: Do you want me to land? (The pres was due in about 15 minutes. No they did not want him to land!) I'll be contacted at harbor Beach? Who should I call? (I doubt he had to call any one as the big blue State Police cars were probably waiting for him) Of course there was the time a year or so back an airliner flew right through our down wind leg for 24 slightly below pattern altitude which is 1000 AGL. Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair) www.rogerhalstead.com Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet (take out the trash :-) |
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