Total Cost of Ownership

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 8:20:11 PM UTC+3, howard banks wrote:
Way back when I was trying to justify in economic terms buying a glider. My guesswork about the cross-over point came roughly speaking to renting for 25 hours a year a single-seat Grob. Lots of fudging with the numbers, glider kept in trailer, not that high priced glider ($10-12k) and none of the realism about annual routine costs listed by Steve or Renny.
The best bit about owning is that you can decide at any time to go fly, and you can fly as long as you like without the FBO (or club President) screaming your time is up on the radio when you are at 6k agl in 6 knots with another 2k still to climb (do not ask how I know that). There are only your own restrictions on flying cross country ... and then there will be trips to camps, contests. Beats renting, especially if the best available is a worn-out 1-26.

And if the club has several DG1000 and a DG100 and a $1k/yr unlimited hours (plus tows) deal?

You can still get called back, of course. Unless you can fly on week days. Then it's *really* unlimited.

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 3:10:09 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 8:20:11 PM UTC+3, howard banks wrote:
Way back when I was trying to justify in economic terms buying a glider.. My guesswork about the cross-over point came roughly speaking to renting for 25 hours a year a single-seat Grob. Lots of fudging with the numbers, glider kept in trailer, not that high priced glider ($10-12k) and none of the realism about annual routine costs listed by Steve or Renny.
The best bit about owning is that you can decide at any time to go fly, and you can fly as long as you like without the FBO (or club President) screaming your time is up on the radio when you are at 6k agl in 6 knots with another 2k still to climb (do not ask how I know that). There are only your own restrictions on flying cross country ... and then there will be trips to camps, contests. Beats renting, especially if the best available is a worn-out 1-26.

And if the club has several DG1000 and a DG100 and a $1k/yr unlimited hours (plus tows) deal?

You can still get called back, of course. Unless you can fly on week days.. Then it's *really* unlimited.

Bruce,
Interesting..Can you tell me exactly where this club is located where they have several DG1000s and you pay $1000./year for unlimited hours?
Thanks - Renny

There's one expense no one has mentioned: refinishing. If your glider is finished in polyester gel coat, it will eventually require refinishing, a $20,000 to $30,000+ expense if you pay an expert, less to much less if you can do it all or partly by yourself (an inducement to own it with the right, mechanically handy partner).

Yes, that's more than some gliders are worth. And over the life of the glider, it's not bad: maybe $1,000 to $1,500 per year. But if you buy a 15-year-old glider and the gel coat is already starting to craze and crack, you're probably amortizing it over 5, not 20 years. And you won't get nearly that investment back when you sell it.

How long gel coat lasts depends on the quality of what's on there now, the materials used, the environment in which the glider is stored, and (according to many) whether you do a lot of high-altitude flying with cold-soak/warming cycles and flexing-while-brittle hours. Some pilots keep flying them long after the gel coat is literally flaking off, but there are other problems with this.

Some gliders seem to show signs of aging in a few years. Others go a lot longer. Some brands/types of gel coat last longer. If the glider is finished in polyurethane, it may not need refinishing in your lifetime. Of course, all this applies only to composite, not metal or wood construction.

There's a lot of discussion about what is the best glider to buy, especially for first timers. Three big factors from my perspective a

1. Quality of the finish: glider maintenance is relatively inexpensive...with this exception
2. Quality of the trailer: you'll fly more--and avoid stupid assembly damage--if it's easier to rig
3. Instruments: you can upgrade to the latest whizzy gadgets but it's nice if someone else has already done the install and debugging work. And you don't need the latest stuff to fly XC or even competition.

IMHO.

Chip Bearden

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 12:19:34 AM UTC+3, Renny wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 3:10:09 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 8:20:11 PM UTC+3, howard banks wrote:
Way back when I was trying to justify in economic terms buying a glider. My guesswork about the cross-over point came roughly speaking to renting for 25 hours a year a single-seat Grob. Lots of fudging with the numbers, glider kept in trailer, not that high priced glider ($10-12k) and none of the realism about annual routine costs listed by Steve or Renny.
The best bit about owning is that you can decide at any time to go fly, and you can fly as long as you like without the FBO (or club President) screaming your time is up on the radio when you are at 6k agl in 6 knots with another 2k still to climb (do not ask how I know that). There are only your own restrictions on flying cross country ... and then there will be trips to camps, contests. Beats renting, especially if the best available is a worn-out 1-26.

And if the club has several DG1000 and a DG100 and a $1k/yr unlimited hours (plus tows) deal?

You can still get called back, of course. Unless you can fly on week days. Then it's *really* unlimited.

Bruce,
Interesting..Can you tell me exactly where this club is located where they have several DG1000s and you pay $1000./year for unlimited hours?
Thanks - Renny

http://soar.co.nz/index.php/about-us/#_ourfleet

I can't immediately find the member's fees list on the (again!) reorganized web site, but that's about what it was last I checked. That's in addition for the approx $500 annual dues everyone pays.

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 12:19:34 AM UTC+3, Renny wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 3:10:09 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 8:20:11 PM UTC+3, howard banks wrote:
Way back when I was trying to justify in economic terms buying a glider. My guesswork about the cross-over point came roughly speaking to renting for 25 hours a year a single-seat Grob. Lots of fudging with the numbers, glider kept in trailer, not that high priced glider ($10-12k) and none of the realism about annual routine costs listed by Steve or Renny.
The best bit about owning is that you can decide at any time to go fly, and you can fly as long as you like without the FBO (or club President) screaming your time is up on the radio when you are at 6k agl in 6 knots with another 2k still to climb (do not ask how I know that). There are only your own restrictions on flying cross country ... and then there will be trips to camps, contests. Beats renting, especially if the best available is a worn-out 1-26.

And if the club has several DG1000 and a DG100 and a $1k/yr unlimited hours (plus tows) deal?

You can still get called back, of course. Unless you can fly on week days. Then it's *really* unlimited.

Bruce,
Interesting..Can you tell me exactly where this club is located where they have several DG1000s and you pay $1000./year for unlimited hours?
Thanks - Renny

Ah, found it. Current as at August 2016. Note that $1000 is less than $700 in USA money.

http://soar.co.nz/wp-content/uploads...l-25-08-18.pdf

Near the bottom:

Glider Incentive Schemes

All Year Incentive Scheme – For an upfront payment of $1,000 all glider hire is free for 12 months from the date of the Club receiving the payment.

Summer Incentive Scheme – For an upfront payment of $400 all glider hire is at the low rate of 30c per minute ($18 per hour). The summer season runs from 1 December to 31 May. The rate applies from the date the Club receives the payment. The usual rates for launches still apply

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 4:38:42 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 12:19:34 AM UTC+3, Renny wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 3:10:09 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 8:20:11 PM UTC+3, howard banks wrote:
Way back when I was trying to justify in economic terms buying a glider. My guesswork about the cross-over point came roughly speaking to renting for 25 hours a year a single-seat Grob. Lots of fudging with the numbers, glider kept in trailer, not that high priced glider ($10-12k) and none of the realism about annual routine costs listed by Steve or Renny.
The best bit about owning is that you can decide at any time to go fly, and you can fly as long as you like without the FBO (or club President) screaming your time is up on the radio when you are at 6k agl in 6 knots with another 2k still to climb (do not ask how I know that). There are only your own restrictions on flying cross country ... and then there will be trips to camps, contests. Beats renting, especially if the best available is a worn-out 1-26.

And if the club has several DG1000 and a DG100 and a $1k/yr unlimited hours (plus tows) deal?

You can still get called back, of course. Unless you can fly on week days. Then it's *really* unlimited.

Bruce,
Interesting..Can you tell me exactly where this club is located where they have several DG1000s and you pay $1000./year for unlimited hours?
Thanks - Renny

Ah, found it. Current as at August 2016. Note that $1000 is less than $700 in USA money.

http://soar.co.nz/wp-content/uploads...l-25-08-18.pdf

Near the bottom:

Glider Incentive Schemes

All Year Incentive Scheme – For an upfront payment of $1,000 all glider hire is free for 12 months from the date of the Club receiving the payment.

Summer Incentive Scheme – For an upfront payment of $400 all glider hire is at the low rate of 30c per minute ($18 per hour). The summer season runs from 1 December to 31 May. The rate applies from the date the Club receives the payment. The usual rates for launches still apply

Bruce,
Thanks for the great info and those are really excellent options for those folks in New Zealand (and I am sure other locations around the world)!

Unfortunately in the US, with a few exceptions (such as TSA, Harris Hill, NY and a few other US clubs) high-performance, 2-seat gliders such as DG1000s and Duos are just not available. US clubs typically have Grob 103s and Schweizer 2-33s and in some locations they may even have an ASK-21 or a Blanik L-23 available, so if a US glider pilot wants to fly something with higher performance at a club, it tends to drive folks to go out and purchase a glider either on their own, or with a partner or two!

Now, there are also several commercial operations in the US with DG-1000s and Duos available, but again for most US clubs, those ships are generally not to be found...
Thx - Renny

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 2:23:31 AM UTC+3, Renny wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 4:38:42 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 12:19:34 AM UTC+3, Renny wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 3:10:09 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 8:20:11 PM UTC+3, howard banks wrote:
Way back when I was trying to justify in economic terms buying a glider. My guesswork about the cross-over point came roughly speaking to renting for 25 hours a year a single-seat Grob. Lots of fudging with the numbers, glider kept in trailer, not that high priced glider ($10-12k) and none of the realism about annual routine costs listed by Steve or Renny.
The best bit about owning is that you can decide at any time to go fly, and you can fly as long as you like without the FBO (or club President) screaming your time is up on the radio when you are at 6k agl in 6 knots with another 2k still to climb (do not ask how I know that). There are only your own restrictions on flying cross country ... and then there will be trips to camps, contests. Beats renting, especially if the best available is a worn-out 1-26.

And if the club has several DG1000 and a DG100 and a $1k/yr unlimited hours (plus tows) deal?

You can still get called back, of course. Unless you can fly on week days. Then it's *really* unlimited.

Bruce,
Interesting..Can you tell me exactly where this club is located where they have several DG1000s and you pay $1000./year for unlimited hours?
Thanks - Renny

Ah, found it. Current as at August 2016. Note that $1000 is less than $700 in USA money.

http://soar.co.nz/wp-content/uploads...l-25-08-18.pdf

Near the bottom:

Glider Incentive Schemes

All Year Incentive Scheme – For an upfront payment of $1,000 all glider hire is free for 12 months from the date of the Club receiving the payment.

Summer Incentive Scheme – For an upfront payment of $400 all glider hire is at the low rate of 30c per minute ($18 per hour). The summer season runs from 1 December to 31 May. The rate applies from the date the Club receives the payment. The usual rates for launches still apply

Bruce,
Thanks for the great info and those are really excellent options for those folks in New Zealand (and I am sure other locations around the world)!

Unfortunately in the US, with a few exceptions (such as TSA, Harris Hill, NY and a few other US clubs) high-performance, 2-seat gliders such as DG1000s and Duos are just not available. US clubs typically have Grob 103s and Schweizer 2-33s and in some locations they may even have an ASK-21 or a Blanik L-23 available, so if a US glider pilot wants to fly something with higher performance at a club, it tends to drive folks to go out and purchase a glider either on their own, or with a partner or two!

Now, there are also several commercial operations in the US with DG-1000s and Duos available, but again for most US clubs, those ships are generally not to be found...
Thx - Renny

Yes, and it's a great mystery to the rest of us why USA clubs choose to be so poorly equipped!!

NZ clubs mostly switched to training in glass ships such as the Grob Twin Astir from the mid 80s to the mid 90s, and my club sold the (well used when we bought them in 1995 or so) Twin Astirs and Janus around 2005 and bought the two brand new DG1000 "Club" aircraft. They were the first two actually made by DG -- they'd been on the price list for some years but everyone else who tried to buy one was successfully upsold! After we had ours for a few years, suddenly several airforces around the world (including USAF) started putting in big orders for them! Great aircraft.

At the prices in that PDF every piece of equipment brings in enough money to firstly pay back the loan use to buy it, and secondly for maintainance, insurance etc. The Gliders, winch (/towplane), and clubhouse are all their own profit centers without cross-subsidisation.

Here's a recent video of a training flight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhDwieA2Hzw

This is a nice video, though for some reason whoever made it decided to not make it obvious to the casual observer that the actual flight is in the (other club at the same site's) 13!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-7dxhB6zd4

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 5:36:17 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 2:23:31 AM UTC+3, Renny wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 4:38:42 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 12:19:34 AM UTC+3, Renny wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 3:10:09 PM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 8:20:11 PM UTC+3, howard banks wrote:
Way back when I was trying to justify in economic terms buying a glider. My guesswork about the cross-over point came roughly speaking to renting for 25 hours a year a single-seat Grob. Lots of fudging with the numbers, glider kept in trailer, not that high priced glider ($10-12k) and none of the realism about annual routine costs listed by Steve or Renny.
The best bit about owning is that you can decide at any time to go fly, and you can fly as long as you like without the FBO (or club President) screaming your time is up on the radio when you are at 6k agl in 6 knots with another 2k still to climb (do not ask how I know that). There are only your own restrictions on flying cross country ... and then there will be trips to camps, contests. Beats renting, especially if the best available is a worn-out 1-26.

And if the club has several DG1000 and a DG100 and a $1k/yr unlimited hours (plus tows) deal?

You can still get called back, of course. Unless you can fly on week days. Then it's *really* unlimited.

Bruce,
Interesting..Can you tell me exactly where this club is located where they have several DG1000s and you pay $1000./year for unlimited hours?
Thanks - Renny

Ah, found it. Current as at August 2016. Note that $1000 is less than $700 in USA money.

http://soar.co.nz/wp-content/uploads...l-25-08-18.pdf

Near the bottom:

Glider Incentive Schemes

All Year Incentive Scheme – For an upfront payment of $1,000 all glider hire is free for 12 months from the date of the Club receiving the payment.

Summer Incentive Scheme – For an upfront payment of $400 all glider hire is at the low rate of 30c per minute ($18 per hour). The summer season runs from 1 December to 31 May. The rate applies from the date the Club receives the payment. The usual rates for launches still apply

Bruce,
Thanks for the great info and those are really excellent options for those folks in New Zealand (and I am sure other locations around the world)!

Unfortunately in the US, with a few exceptions (such as TSA, Harris Hill, NY and a few other US clubs) high-performance, 2-seat gliders such as DG1000s and Duos are just not available. US clubs typically have Grob 103s and Schweizer 2-33s and in some locations they may even have an ASK-21 or a Blanik L-23 available, so if a US glider pilot wants to fly something with higher performance at a club, it tends to drive folks to go out and purchase a glider either on their own, or with a partner or two!

Now, there are also several commercial operations in the US with DG-1000s and Duos available, but again for most US clubs, those ships are generally not to be found...
Thx - Renny

Yes, and it's a great mystery to the rest of us why USA clubs choose to be so poorly equipped!!

NZ clubs mostly switched to training in glass ships such as the Grob Twin Astir from the mid 80s to the mid 90s, and my club sold the (well used when we bought them in 1995 or so) Twin Astirs and Janus around 2005 and bought the two brand new DG1000 "Club" aircraft. They were the first two actually made by DG -- they'd been on the price list for some years but everyone else who tried to buy one was successfully upsold! After we had ours for a few years, suddenly several airforces around the world (including USAF) started putting in big orders for them! Great aircraft.

At the prices in that PDF every piece of equipment brings in enough money to firstly pay back the loan use to buy it, and secondly for maintainance, insurance etc. The Gliders, winch (/towplane), and clubhouse are all their own profit centers without cross-subsidisation.

Here's a recent video of a training flight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhDwieA2Hzw

This is a nice video, though for some reason whoever made it decided to not make it obvious to the casual observer that the actual flight is in the (other club at the same site's) 13!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-7dxhB6zd4

Bruce,
Indeed, the "mystery...." I will save my "deep thoughts" on that subject for another day, but perhaps others will want to comment on this US club fleet "mystery." Now, at this point I normally start referring to "The X-Files" and "The Twilight Zone," in order to provide some entertainment value for the readers of this soaring forum, but I will save those references for another time... ;-)
Thanks, Bruce....
Renny

Out of Truckee there is a club with a DG 505 or 500.

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 9:48:53 PM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Out of Truckee there is a club with a DG 505 or 500.

I think you may be thinking of the Hollister based club that relocates to other sites during the season. They own a DG1000 and DG505 plus a couple of singles. That club doesn't train or tow their members, using commercial operators for those services.

A quick look shows there are
64 ASK-21's on the FAA registry.
48 owned by clubs, perhaps others are leased to clubs. One appears to be in a private club.

18 DG-500/505's total
3 owned by clubs, perhaps 1 or 2 leased to clubs.

35 DG-1000/1001
2 in clubs it appears, 19 at USAFA

6 SZD-50
3 in clubs

33 Duo Discus
5 in clubs

Quite a number of the above not in clubs are owned by individuals, some in LLC's and the rest by commercial operators and some in non-profit flight schools.

I'm told the SZD-54 manufacturer isn't bothered with a US STC because they are selling enough in Europe. There is an STC in Canada. I was also told German clubs are replacing their high time K-21's with SZD-54's.

Frank Whiteley