Why so many 310s for sale?

I've noticed quite a few Cessna 310s posted for sale recently on
ebaymotors and controller.com. This got me wondering if there is a
reason why there are so many on the market (beyond the obvious high
fuel and insurance costs for twins). Are 310s impacted by the spar ADs
that the bigger twin Cessnas have to deal with?

The 310 always looked like an interesting plane to me. With prices the
way they are right now, it looks like there are some bargains out
there.

Eric Bartsch
1959 Pilatus P-3 A-848
http://www.hometown.aol.com/bartscher/P3A848.html

Eric,

No spar AD's yet and hopefully we won't have. More than likely there is an
increase in
number for sale due to fuel costs. My T310-Q burns 30 gph. My insurance
(abt $4100 for $180k Hull Value)
did increase about $300 last year over the previous year. I have about 150
hrs on my factory remans (last December) yet the value decreased about $20k
last year according to AOPA valuation. I have about
900 hrs in mine in 5 yrs and really like the room inside and speed (abt
185kts TAS @ 65%).
I thought about selling mine but with the depressed market thought I would
hold off a while.
It would probably be the best time to buy one in a long time. Any specific
questions email me.

Mark Manes
N28409
WC5I


wrote in message
ups.com...
I've noticed quite a few Cessna 310s posted for sale recently on
ebaymotors and controller.com. This got me wondering if there is a
reason why there are so many on the market (beyond the obvious high
fuel and insurance costs for twins). Are 310s impacted by the spar ADs
that the bigger twin Cessnas have to deal with?

The 310 always looked like an interesting plane to me. With prices the
way they are right now, it looks like there are some bargains out
there.

Eric Bartsch
1959 Pilatus P-3 A-848
http://www.hometown.aol.com/bartscher/P3A848.html

In article . com,
" wrote:

I've noticed quite a few Cessna 310s posted for sale recently on
ebaymotors and controller.com. This got me wondering if there is a
reason why there are so many on the market (beyond the obvious high
fuel and insurance costs for twins). Are 310s impacted by the spar ADs
that the bigger twin Cessnas have to deal with?

The 310 always looked like an interesting plane to me. With prices the
way they are right now, it looks like there are some bargains out
there.

Find out what their histories are.
Many have been used to haul freight so the combination of spar AD and
runout engines may make it cheaper to pickup something else than to
rebuild the engines and comply with the spar AD. Some operations bought
310s because of their speed, but the do not haul as much as a Baron.

The 310 always looked like an interesting plane to me. With prices the
way they are right now, it looks like there are some bargains out
there.

I agree, it's a cool plane. The coldest I've ever been in my life was
flying a 310 into Rochester, MN....but I digress...

The twin market in general has taken a huge dump. Two friends on the
field who own twins (an Aerostar and a Baron) have completely given up
trying to activiely sell them, because they can't possibly get back
anywhere near what they've got invested in them.

I think part of this is cyclical (people have to get used to higher gas
prices again, every few years), but part of this is a real sea change.
For a long time, being a "real pilot" meant retractable gear and two
engines. Now, with Cirrus and Lancair/Columbia proving that fixed gear
doesn't mean "slow", and Richard Collins (of Flying Magazine) almost
single-handedly proving that two engines doesn't mean "safe", I think
we're seeing a real move away from the traditional twin-engine plane.

Which is great, if you're buying, and really sucks, if you're
selling...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article . com,
"Jay Honeck" wrote:

I agree, it's a cool plane. The coldest I've ever been in my life was
flying a 310 into Rochester, MN....but I digress...

Probably worn out door seals.
I flew right seat with a friend from Ohio to Florida and back one trip.
I could feel the draft when the seal lost pressure. There was a hand
bulb air pump that would squeeze until I felt resistance to indicate the
seal was pumped up. No more cold air draft.

I've followed the Aerostar and the Beech Duke market lately and I agree,
their resale prices continue to decline. I haven't paid attention to Baron
prices. I also follow the Aztec market and it seems to have rebounded.
Last year we could have had our choice of Aztecs that were 10 years newer,
lower engine times, with better avionics and equipment for the same price or
slightly more than we paid for ours. Today these airplanes are up
significantly and I find several examples comparable to ours selling at or
above what we paid. As far as getting back what's been invested? Not a
chance if you include upgrades, especially in the avionics department.

I think that the best return bang for your buck will always be 4 place fixed
gear singles and certain "specialty" planes such as SuperCubs, C180's ect.

Jim


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
The 310 always looked like an interesting plane to me. With prices the
way they are right now, it looks like there are some bargains out
there.

I agree, it's a cool plane. The coldest I've ever been in my life was
flying a 310 into Rochester, MN....but I digress...

The twin market in general has taken a huge dump. Two friends on the
field who own twins (an Aerostar and a Baron) have completely given up
trying to activiely sell them, because they can't possibly get back
anywhere near what they've got invested in them.

I think part of this is cyclical (people have to get used to higher gas
prices again, every few years), but part of this is a real sea change.
For a long time, being a "real pilot" meant retractable gear and two
engines. Now, with Cirrus and Lancair/Columbia proving that fixed gear
doesn't mean "slow", and Richard Collins (of Flying Magazine) almost
single-handedly proving that two engines doesn't mean "safe", I think
we're seeing a real move away from the traditional twin-engine plane.

Which is great, if you're buying, and really sucks, if you're
selling...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On 1 Dec 2006 19:27:17 -0800, "
wrote:

I've noticed quite a few Cessna 310s posted for sale recently on
ebaymotors and controller.com. This got me wondering if there is a
reason why there are so many on the market (beyond the obvious high
fuel and insurance costs for twins). Are 310s impacted by the spar ADs
that the bigger twin Cessnas have to deal with?

The 310 always looked like an interesting plane to me. With prices the
way they are right now, it looks like there are some bargains out
there.

Owning a high performance twin is ridiculously expensive.

Examine the 310:

Factoryengines.com lists the O-470 as ~$27k rebuilt. So $54k of
engine reserve spread across 1500 or 1700 hrs depending on the exact
engine model, and that does not include removal/installation costsl.
$31/hr reserve.

Fuel burn = 14gph * 2 = 28gph.
Gas prices are down recently, but $5 fuel was common only a few months
ago. So 28 * $5.00 = $140/hr.

Oil. $5/quart.
Consumption = 2 quart every 10 hours between the two engines = $1/hr.
Oil Changes = 20 quarts every 50 hrs = $2/hr.
Total = $3/hr.

So $140 + $31 + $3 = $174/hr for the variable costs.

Now the fixed costs:
Hangar. This one varies depending on location. A twin in heated,
shared space at my Chicago area airport is $600. A T-hangar can be
leased for $375, so let's go with that. $375 * 12 = $4,500/yr.

Insurance. I have no idea what today's rates on a 310 are, but I
looked into Seneca II insurance about 2 years ago, and the best rate
this low time ME pilot could find was $5,000/yr. I doubt a 310 is any
cheaper.

Maintenance. This is the big variable. I would think a minimum of
$7,500 should be budgeted for annuals, cylinders, avionics, and the
misc expenses.

Spread the fixed costs across 200hrs of flying. Which is probably
more than a typical owner/pilot would fly in a year.

$4500 + 5000 + 7500 = $17,000
$17,000 / 200hrs yields $85/hr.

So summing the fixed and variable costs for 200hrs per year is
~$260/hr, or $51,800 per year, and this figure neglects the cost of
capital.

The purchase price of many older 310s is not much higher than that!

Worse, there are no guarantees... ...that the engine will make TBO,
....that cracks will not be found on the 40 year old wing spar, ...
that the overwing exhaust hasn't corroded the wingspar.

Jay,

I agree that the Cirrus/Columbia/Diamond Star aircraft are having an
impact on the light twin market. In many cases the SR-22 or the
Columbia's are actually faster than many light twins, and they have
much better avionics. However, at this point, there are a lot of 310s
with low time engines, nice avionics, and relatively new paint &
interiors; that are selling for relatively low prices (about 1/3 of
what a Cirrus goes for new). As I mentioned to you, at some point in
the next couple of years, I'm going to have to trade the Pilatus for
something more practical. It is tempting to look at a late 60s or early
70s 310 that has been nicely taken care of, although the fuel bills
would be significant, and the reserve for engine & prop overhauls would
have to be huge. If the conversations I had with insurance agents at
Oshkosh were accurate, I might be able to get insured on the 310
cheaper than on a Cirrus.

In the end its probably all wishful thinking, but a nice 310 would be a
great plane.

Eric Bartsch
1959 Pilatus P-3 A-848
http://www.hometown.aol.com/bartscher/P3A848.html


On Dec 2, 10:43 am, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
The 310 always looked like an interesting plane to me. With prices the
way they are right now, it looks like there are some bargains out
there.I agree, it's a cool plane. The coldest I've ever been in my life was
flying a 310 into Rochester, MN....but I digress...

The twin market in general has taken a huge dump. Two friends on the
field who own twins (an Aerostar and a Baron) have completely given up
trying to activiely sell them, because they can't possibly get back
anywhere near what they've got invested in them.

I think part of this is cyclical (people have to get used to higher gas
prices again, every few years), but part of this is a real sea change.
For a long time, being a "real pilot" meant retractable gear and two
engines. Now, with Cirrus and Lancair/Columbia proving that fixed gear
doesn't mean "slow", and Richard Collins (of Flying Magazine) almost
single-handedly proving that two engines doesn't mean "safe", I think
we're seeing a real move away from the traditional twin-engine plane.

Which is great, if you're buying, and really sucks, if you're
selling...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"john smith" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
"Jay Honeck" wrote:

I agree, it's a cool plane. The coldest I've ever been in my life was
flying a 310 into Rochester, MN....but I digress...

Probably worn out door seals.
I flew right seat with a friend from Ohio to Florida and back one trip.
I could feel the draft when the seal lost pressure. There was a hand
bulb air pump that would squeeze until I felt resistance to indicate the
seal was pumped up. No more cold air draft.

Mor likely the Janitrol heater was out. They are a HUGE maintenance item.


Karl

Mor likely the Janitrol heater was out. They are a HUGE maintenance item.

Bingo. We thought we were going to die.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"