Is the 787 a failure ?

On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:22:21 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"Mr.B1ack" wrote:

On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:13:58 -0800, Max Boot wrote:

On 1/29/2013 7:04 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

"Mr.B1ack" wrote:
And Boeing didn't spin fast enough to prevent the perception
of the 787 becoming that of a flaming deathtrap.

Who has died aboard a 787?

Has Airbus fixed the faults that allowed a functional A330 to stall
and fall out of the sky without informing its crew? jsw


Not that I know of. The newest plane I've flown on was a 727.
The
other was a DC10. I flew to Alaska & back from Ohio in the '70s and
have never needed to go anywhere by plane since.

You are the classic example of why cosmopolitan Europeans and Asians
mock Americans: a bumpkin, a rube, someone who thinks everything in
the world worth seeing and knowing is within a two hour mule ride
from your shack.

Though, oddly, those cosmopolitan euros will flock over on their
tourist bus to take a million photos of his mule and shack ...
"Rustic Americana", very artsy-fartsy dontchaknow.


I haven't seen a mule since the '60s.

They've built a better one :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KYnbwXTMXA


I've seen plenty of European
tourrists who could give a mule a lessons on how to be stubborn. Orlando
was crawling with them when I worked there as an engineer.


Oh gawd ... Orlando ..... the holy hajj to The Rat ......


As far as Max, how long has that size 17 US made cowboy boot been up
your sorry ass?


I thought hillbillies went barefoot ... makes it
easier to sneak up on their sisters :-)

On Jan 29, 3:02*pm, Max Boot wrote:
On 1/29/2013 11:40 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Max Boot" wrote in message
.. .
On 1/29/2013 8:50 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

So Europeans are fully justified in crucifying Boeing over a battery
that harmed no one, but Americans MUST NOT embarrassingly mention the
fatal crash of an Airbus that was in perfect working condition when it
smashed into the ocean?

Such fragile egos!

Okay, so you're not just an untraveled rube and bumpkin, you're also
hyper-nationalistic and sensitive about being an untraveled rube.

I haven't seen anything to suggest Europeans are "crucifying" [sic]
Boeing over the battery problem. *You seem to be trying to downplay it..
*It's a serious problem, and it has led to the *American* FAA
grounding
all the planes. *While ice in the pitot tubes is suspected of producing
the faulty airspeed readings, the main cause of the crash of the Air
France A330 was pilot error.

That was the same ruling for the A310 Hapag-Lloyd Flight 3378 crash in
Vienna (back on July 12, 2000). Its like it just ran out of fuel and
fell out of the sky or something.

"Transition Zone" wrote in message
news:c67b5f86-745c-46fc-9534-
That was the same ruling for theA310 Hapag-Lloyd Flight 3378 crash in
Vienna (back on July 12, 2000). Its like it just ran out of fuel and
fell out of the sky or something.

The wiki says the landing gear wouldn't fully retract and the FMS
miscalculated their remaining range. They aborted to Vienna and had to
glide the last 20km, hitting 500m short.

On 1/29/2013 7:46 AM, Mr.B1ack wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:13:58 -0800, Max Boot wrote:

On 1/29/2013 7:04 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

"Mr.B1ack" wrote:
And Boeing didn't spin fast enough to prevent the perception of
the 787 becoming that of a flaming deathtrap.

Who has died aboard a 787?

Has Airbus fixed the faults that allowed a functional A330 to stall
and fall out of the sky without informing its crew? jsw


Not that I know of. The newest plane I've flown on was a 727. The
other was a DC10. I flew to Alaska & back from Ohio in the '70s and
have never needed to go anywhere by plane since.

You are the classic example of why cosmopolitan Europeans and Asians
mock Americans: a bumpkin, a rube, someone who thinks everything in the
world worth seeing and knowing is within a two hour mule ride from your
shack.

Though, oddly, those cosmopolitan euros will flock
over on their tourist bus to take a million photos
of his mule and shack ... "Rustic Americana", very
artsy-fartsy dontchaknow :-)


Yes, of course. Europeans are interested in learning how primitives live.

On 1/29/2013 1:13 PM, Transition Zone wrote:
On Jan 29, 3:02 pm, Max Boot wrote:
On 1/29/2013 11:40 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Max Boot" wrote in message
...
On 1/29/2013 8:50 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

So Europeans are fully justified in crucifying Boeing over a battery
that harmed no one, but Americans MUST NOT embarrassingly mention the
fatal crash of an Airbus that was in perfect working condition when it
smashed into the ocean?

Such fragile egos!

Okay, so you're not just an untraveled rube and bumpkin, you're also
hyper-nationalistic and sensitive about being an untraveled rube.

I haven't seen anything to suggest Europeans are "crucifying" [sic]
Boeing over the battery problem. You seem to be trying to downplay it.
It's a serious problem, and it has led to the *American* FAA
grounding
all the planes. While ice in the pitot tubes is suspected of producing
the faulty airspeed readings, the main cause of the crash of the Air
France A330 was pilot error.

That was the same ruling for the A310 Hapag-Lloyd Flight 3378 crash in
Vienna (back on July 12, 2000). Its like it just ran out of fuel and
fell out of the sky or something.

No, that's not what happened at all. It had an unretracted landing gear
that caused it to burn fuel faster than expected. The crew used a
flight management system that estimated how far they could go on the
remaining fuel, but that system did not take into account the effect of
increased drag, so they ran out even earlier than anticipated and had to
glide the aircraft toward an airport, which they didn't reach by 500 meters.

Get your facts straight next time.

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...

I know I sure have fewer regrets than you
cosmo folks. And, I like it that way. Now, I've
got to go shovel up after my mule.

Christopher A. Young

Any illusion of culture Alistair Cooke may have given us went down the
loo when we saw Benny Hill and Mr. Bean.


Don't forget Monty Python & the Lumberjack song.

"Mr.B1ack" wrote:

On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:22:21 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"Mr.B1ack" wrote:

On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:13:58 -0800, Max Boot wrote:

On 1/29/2013 7:04 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

"Mr.B1ack" wrote:
And Boeing didn't spin fast enough to prevent the perception
of the 787 becoming that of a flaming deathtrap.

Who has died aboard a 787?

Has Airbus fixed the faults that allowed a functional A330 to stall
and fall out of the sky without informing its crew? jsw


Not that I know of. The newest plane I've flown on was a 727.
The
other was a DC10. I flew to Alaska & back from Ohio in the '70s and
have never needed to go anywhere by plane since.

You are the classic example of why cosmopolitan Europeans and Asians
mock Americans: a bumpkin, a rube, someone who thinks everything in
the world worth seeing and knowing is within a two hour mule ride
from your shack.

Though, oddly, those cosmopolitan euros will flock over on their
tourist bus to take a million photos of his mule and shack ...
"Rustic Americana", very artsy-fartsy dontchaknow.

I haven't seen a mule since the '60s.

They've built a better one :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KYnbwXTMXA

I've seen plenty of European
tourrists who could give a mule a lessons on how to be stubborn. Orlando
was crawling with them when I worked there as an engineer.

Oh gawd ... Orlando ..... the holy hajj to The Rat ......

As far as Max, how long has that size 17 US made cowboy boot been up
your sorry ass?

I thought hillbillies went barefoot ... makes it
easier to sneak up on their sisters :-)


I wouldn't know. Is tht how your sister got pregnant 16 times?

Sixth NTSB update:
|
| January 29
|
| WASHINGTON - The National Transportation Safety Board today
| released the sixth update on its investigation into the
| Jan. 7 fire aboard a Japan Airlines Boeing 787 at Logan
| International Airport in Boston.
|
| The examination of the damaged battery continues. The work
| has transitioned from macroscopic to microscopic
| examinations and into chemical and elemental analysis of
| the areas of internal short circuiting and thermal damage.
|
| Examination and testing of the exemplar battery from the
| JAL airplane has begun at the Carderock Division of the
| Naval Surface Warfare Center laboratories. Detailed
| examinations will be looking for signs of in-service damage
| and manufacturing defects. The test program will include
| mechanical and electrical tests to determine the
| performance of the battery, and to uncover signs of any
| degradation in expected performance.
|
| As a party contributing to the investigation, Boeing is
| providing pertinent fleet information, which will help
| investigators understand the operating history of
| lithium-ion batteries on those airplanes.
|
| An investigative group continued to interpret data from the
| two digital flight data recorders on the aircraft, and is
| examining recorded signals to determine if they might yield
| additional information about the performance of the battery
| and the operation of the charging system.
|
| In addition to the activities in Washington, investigators
| are continuing their work in Seattle and Japan.
|
| Additional information on the NTSB's investigation of the
| Japan Airlines B-787 battery fire in Boston is available at
| http://go.usa.gov/4K4J.
|
| The NTSB will provide another factual update on Friday,
| Feb. 1, or earlier if developments warrant. To be alerted
| to any updates or developments, follow the NTSB on Twitter
| at www.twitter.com/ntsb.
|
http://www.ntsb.gov/news/2013/130129b.html

--bks

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
... All the warnings
were there except for the indicators on the instrument panel.

All the warnings were NOT there, and the ones they had were
misleading. The stall indicator shut off below a minimum airspeed
and came on when they correctly put the nose down and gained speed.

I finally found it on page 44 of the main body of the BEA inquest:
"............If the CAS measurements for
the three ADR are lower than 60 kt, the angle of attack values of the
three ADR are
invalid and the stall warning is then inoperative. This results from a
logic stating that
the airflow must be sufficient to ensure a valid measurement by the
angle of attack
sensors, especially to prevent spurious warnings."

The stall warning and pitch attitude graphs are on page 6 of appendix
3.

jsw

|
| The lithium ion batteries installed on the Boeing 787 are
| inherently unsafe, says Elon Musk, founder of SpaceX and
| owner of electric car maker Tesla.
|
| "Unfortunately, the pack architecture supplied to Boeing is
| inherently unsafe," writes Musk in an email to Flightglobal.
| ...
| Musk's assessments of battery cells were confirmed by
| Donald Sadoway, a professor of electrical engineering at
| the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
|
| "I would have used the same words," says Sadoway. "I would
| have used the same words. I'm glad someone with such a big
| reputation put it on the line."
| ...
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/elon-musk-boeing-787-battery-fundamentally-unsafe-381627/

--bks