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Is the 787 a failure ?



 
 
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  #221  
Old March 23rd 13, 01:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.aviation.military,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions
Bradley K. Sherman
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Posts: 50
Default Is the 787 a failure ?

| ...
| The letter from the NTSB signals tension between the agency
| and Boeing. This is not good for Boeing, as it tries to
| mitigate damage to the image of its high-efficiency 787 --
| that is, once officials clear the plane to fly.
|
| The main complaint from the agency appears to be that
| Boeing representatives provided "their own analysis and
| conclusions regarding an ongoing NTSB investigation,"
| according to Kelly Nantel, a safety board representative.
|
| Boeing representative Marc Birtel, meanwhile, responded to
| the NTSB criticism -- saying the company officials
| "received the correspondence, and remain fully committed to
| support the NTSB and other regulatory authorities in their
| investigations into the cause of the 787 battery incidents."
|
| In a related story from Reuters, Japan's Civil Aviation
| Bureau said on Friday that, despite optimistic predictions
| by Boeing, no test flight of the grounded 787 Dreamliner
| has been scheduled yet.
| ...
http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post.aspx?post=78e5846c-37f3-4e7f-a6d0-e07cdf584ce1

--bks

  #222  
Old March 23rd 13, 01:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.aviation.military,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions
GunnerAsch
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Posts: 5
Default Is the 787 a failure ?

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 18:07:26 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Daryl" wrote in message
...
And you have NEVER seen an accidental leaking of an AGM battery.
Now just admit it.
Those that can: Do. Those that can't: Teach
Daryl


And those that are absolutely worthless, administrate.

Stop trying to change your own conditions. I've seen one that HAD
ruptured, but I wasn't watching when it happened.
jsw


  #223  
Old March 23rd 13, 01:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.aviation.military,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions
Daryl[_2_]
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Posts: 11
Default Is the 787 a failure ?

On 3/22/2013 6:09 PM, GunnerAsch wrote:
On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 18:07:26 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Daryl" wrote in message
...
And you have NEVER seen an accidental leaking of an AGM battery.
Now just admit it.
Those that can: Do. Those that can't: Teach
Daryl


And those that are absolutely worthless, administrate.


I was stationed with a newly awarded BS in Electronics once. He was a 2
striper. He lorded over all the "Unclean and Uneducated" masses pretty
hard. I finally shut him up by saying that he was an idiot before he
was educated and now he was an ajumicated Idjit. The one that laughed
the hardest at that was a buck sgt who was previously a Cornell
University Professor who had joined the circus to get away. The Prof
had a Masters and was one paper away from his PHD but you couldn't tell
it. He was an alright person, really salt. We finally bugged, griped,
threatened, etc. to get him to turn his paper in that he had already
completed and he went back to Cornell with a full Professorship with his
PHD.

Daryl



  #224  
Old March 23rd 13, 02:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.aviation.military,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions
[email protected]
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Posts: 155
Default Is the 787 a failure ?

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 17:50:57 -0600, Daryl
wrote:

On 3/22/2013 4:16 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 15:16:58 -0600, Daryl
wrote:

On 3/22/2013 2:59 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...

VERY common problem on "A Piece of Crap" UPS systems (as well as
some
cheaper ones) but when they split they don't leak.

The acid in an AGM battery is Absorbed in the Glass Mat.
jsw



No, the Glass Matt just keeps it from sloshing around. You break open
that case and the solution will leak out post haste.

And you have NEVER seen an accidental leaking of an AGM battery. Now
just admit it.

Those that can: Do. Those that can't: Teach

Daryl

They are also called "starved electrolyte" batteries - and even when
fractured they do not "leak". They are very similar in that respect to
the older "gell cell"


Totally different internal makeup between the two. Like many, you are
confusing the two and thinking the internal makeup is similar. They aren't.


I'm not confusing them. I know the difference - and I have some
experience with both gel and AGM batteries in UPS units over a 20 year
history, as well as flooded cell deep discharge batteries in EV use -
going back that far as well, plus "gel" experience in wheelchair
batteries and the old "cyclons"

I have yet to see fluid leak from an AGM battery but I'll admit I've
never smashed a good fresh one. Smashed a few dead ones - and they
are just "damp" "starved electrolyte" batteries have a fiberglass mat
of almost felt consistency which is wet with acid to about 95%
capacity - so if the case is broken there is NO free electrolyte to
leak out.

This is why they are not considered hazardous and do not require
hazardous labeling, and can be shipped by air.

The AGM must be kept upright since it does have free liquid in it.


Baloney. A valve regulated recombinent gas absorbed electrolyte
battery can be mounted, charged, and discharged in any position.
What
you see when it's case is bulged is from the Hydrogen and Oxygen being
unable to be vented due to excessive overcharging or the vent hole is
plugged up. Like the old style Lead Acid, when it vents, it burns off
the H2O breaking it up to Hydrogen and Oxygen Gasses. When you open one
up that has done this, what is left is the other parts of the liquid in
the form of solids or actually, powder. The Plates are still lead.


Wrong. In an AGM (recombinent gas absorbed electrolyte) battery the
oxygen and hydrogen are catalytically recombined and never vented
under normal conditions. In extreme overcharge, water vapout pressure
can bulge the case if the valves don't vent and the battery boils dry
- which can also bulge the case. You might use a lot of the batteries,
but you don't understand them very well.
This one, like the unsealed lead acids can form Sulphates on the plates
which shorten the life of the battery because of running them below 50%.
The good news is the desulphators work offered with low amperage may
recover them to almost new condition when that happens.


And AGM batteries are virtually imune to sulphation
When you need a battery that cannot be kept in an upright position, you
choose the Gel Cel. In this battery, the Sulfuric Acid is mixed with
Silica Fume and it makes it into a gel. The Plates are of a Calcium
makeup and are not lead.

Again, Baloney. They are calcium doped lead.

The calcium is used in gell and flooded acid batteries to harden the
lead and strengthen the plate without the excessive gassing and
corrosion, and self discharge of the 3% antimony alloy of a
"conventional" battery. Some batteries use a "conventional" positive
and a calcium negative grid - with the lead paste and lead sulphate
paste caked to the grid, and some use calcium alloy grids for both
(more expensive). A calcium/calcium battery does not gas much and is
used in sealed recombinent (maintenance free) batteries.

With AGM the plates are supported by the glass mat, and in many cases
no calcium or antimony is required. Pure lead thin film AGM batteries
are state of the art for telecom and medical equipment use. They give
the highest power density per unit volume of any lead based battery
technology. They will beat any gel battery hands down - but they do
not come cheap. They can put out insane current, and can be fast
charged without damage.
Odyssey batteries are thin plate pure lead AGM batteries.

We use them in recreation aircraft use almost exclusively.

People confuse the AGM with the Gel Cel all
the time. If you want the best, longest lasting UPS battery, get rid of
the AGM and go with the Gel Cel. They cost more but last much longer.


An AGM battery can stand much higher charge and discharge than the
rather fragile and fussy Gel Cell, which is why gell cells are
virtually extinct in small to medium UPS units and MOST other
applications. Gell and flooded acid batteries both require about 115%
of their rated output in charge - ie - a 100 ah battery requires 115ah
of charge (when new - they can get as bad as 125% and still function).
AGM batteries are down around 102%. This means a LOT less heat in AGM
applications compared to gel. (all that extra wasted 13% power is shed
as heat)

For long slow discharge, in a device with the proper charge controller
for Gel use, the Gel is still a (reasonably) good solution. For heavy
loads, not so good. For high charge rates, not so good. For mobile
high vibration use, not so good - and they DO require a specially
programmed charger. Do NOT charge gel batteries with a normal flooded
acid or agm charger. A pure lead AGM battery is almost always a
better choice.





  #225  
Old March 23rd 13, 01:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.aviation.military,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions
Jim Wilkins[_2_]
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Posts: 52
Default Is the 787 a failure ?

wrote in message
...

For long slow discharge, in a device with the proper charge
controller
for Gel use, the Gel is still a (reasonably) good solution. For
heavy
loads, not so good. For high charge rates, not so good. For mobile
high vibration use, not so good - and they DO require a specially
programmed charger. Do NOT charge gel batteries with a normal
flooded
acid or agm charger. A pure lead AGM battery is almost always a
better choice.


Good advice.

While searching for a comparison of flooded, AGM and gel float
voltages I found this:
http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

I charge all types except NiCd and NiMH with a lab supply, and use it
to temporarily recover old NiCd tool packs that have dropped to zero
and won't charge on an automatic charger, and to reform old
electrolytics.

Lead-acids reveal their state of charge by the increasing voltage
needed to force a constant current into them. I get the endpoint
topping or float voltage from the maker's data sheet, or for flooded
cells by measuring the specific gravity and watching for bubbles in
all cells.

I've noticed that the fully charged and endpoint voltages are about
0.2V different for two identical SLA31 batteries bought a year apart.
The cause could be manufacturing differences in the plates, or
variations in the volume or concentration of the acid.
jsw


  #227  
Old March 24th 13, 01:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.aviation.military,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions
Jim Wilkins[_2_]
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Posts: 52
Default Is the 787 a failure ?

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

wrote:

VERY common problem on "A Piece of Crap" UPS systems (as well as
some
cheaper ones) but when they split they don't leak.


Their battery float voltage can be adjusted, if you don't mind fussing
with them and know what to set it to.
http://www.jjoseph.org/notes/apc_sma..._float_voltage

they are designed to recharge quickly so they are ready for the
next
minor outage. That way they can use a smaller battery and sell them
at
a price that most users can afford.


I have small, cheap Conext and Newpoint UPSs that take half a day to
recharge after a run time test. IIRC they draw about 25W from the AC
line when fully discharged.

jsw



  #228  
Old March 24th 13, 05:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.aviation.military,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions
[email protected]
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Posts: 155
Default Is the 787 a failure ?

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 03:04:41 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

VERY common problem on "A Piece of Crap" UPS systems (as well as some
cheaper ones) but when they split they don't leak.



they are designed to recharge quickly so they are ready for the next
minor outage. That way they can use a smaller battery and sell them at
a price that most users can afford.

Yes, but MANY other brands that sell to the same market - at the same
or similar price point, have less of a problem.
  #229  
Old March 26th 13, 04:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.aviation.military,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions
Michael A. Terrell
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Posts: 26
Default Is the 787 a failure ?


wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 03:04:41 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

VERY common problem on "A Piece of Crap" UPS systems (as well as some
cheaper ones) but when they split they don't leak.



they are designed to recharge quickly so they are ready for the next
minor outage. That way they can use a smaller battery and sell them at
a price that most users can afford.

Yes, but MANY other brands that sell to the same market - at the same
or similar price point, have less of a problem.



People around here complain that they aren't ready for the next power
failure. Pick one most suited to your power problems. We get outages
in clusters. You either need a UPS that will charge in a hurry, or a
much larger unit to cover a cluster. If you only have the rare outage,
then you can go for maximum battery life. I use the cheap steel cased
APC units here, because I get used ones for free. There were 17 in one
batch. I also have some commercial grade rack mount units from another
company sitting around, useless. Lots of unmarked parts & the OEM
claims they never made those models. They also claim that anyone
outside the factory is too damned stupid to do more than change the
batteries.


--

Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

Sometimes Friday is just the fifth Monday of the week.
  #230  
Old March 26th 13, 04:13 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.crafts.metalworking,rec.aviation.military,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions
Michael A. Terrell
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Posts: 26
Default Is the 787 a failure ?


Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

wrote:

VERY common problem on "A Piece of Crap" UPS systems (as well as
some
cheaper ones) but when they split they don't leak.


Their battery float voltage can be adjusted, if you don't mind fussing
with them and know what to set it to.
http://www.jjoseph.org/notes/apc_sma..._float_voltage



I get five year life out of the steel cased APC UPS without
modifications, and I have only bought one new. that was 14 years ago.
Since then I have accumulated dozens of free units that work when you
replace the battery.


I have small, cheap Conext and Newpoint UPSs that take half a day to
recharge after a run time test. IIRC they draw about 25W from the AC
line when fully discharged.



--

Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

Sometimes Friday is just the fifth Monday of the week.
 




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