A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old October 2nd 17, 10:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
mic pilot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it.
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft..

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.
Ads
  #62  
Old October 3rd 17, 02:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 636
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-4, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it.
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.


Hi Mic,

Wellllllll... since a lot of this is all new to me it's a cinch that it's new to many, if not most glider pilots. Never heard of a STAR until this discussion. Didn't know you could get free copies :-).

This would be a good opportunity for some knowledgeable glider + airline pilot or glider pilot + ATC guy to do an article or two. Let me be first to provide such encouragement.

But I really have to wonder about the wisdom of bringing big iron down below 8000 that far out of class B in VFR conditions. Actually, I don't "wonder" at all, I think it's unconscionably stupid. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8
  #63  
Old October 3rd 17, 02:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 918
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 4:24:48 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-4, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it.
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.


Hi Mic,

Wellllllll... since a lot of this is all new to me it's a cinch that it's new to many, if not most glider pilots. Never heard of a STAR until this discussion. Didn't know you could get free copies :-).

This would be a good opportunity for some knowledgeable glider + airline pilot or glider pilot + ATC guy to do an article or two. Let me be first to provide such encouragement.

But I really have to wonder about the wisdom of bringing big iron down below 8000 that far out of class B in VFR conditions. Actually, I don't "wonder" at all, I think it's unconscionably stupid. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.


It seems very strange to me too. Especially in the USA where (last I heard) it's still legal to float around in a Tiger Moth without an electrical system, let alone a radio.

In New Zealand, even quite small towns such as Napier (60k), Gisborne (36k), New Plymouth (57k) have controlled airspace around them, and as far as I know commercial IFR flights are kept entirely out of uncontrolled airpace.

https://skyvector.com/?ll=-38.585102...t=301&zo om=9

Smaller towns with scheduled service such as Taupo (24k), Kerikeri (7k) don't.

Whangarei (56k) is I think the only anomaly of being relatively large but without controlled airspace. (or maybe Gisborne is the anomaly)
  #64  
Old October 3rd 17, 04:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ron Gleason
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 429
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Tuesday, 3 October 2017 07:24:48 UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-4, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it.
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.


Hi Mic,

Wellllllll... since a lot of this is all new to me it's a cinch that it's new to many, if not most glider pilots. Never heard of a STAR until this discussion. Didn't know you could get free copies :-).

This would be a good opportunity for some knowledgeable glider + airline pilot or glider pilot + ATC guy to do an article or two. Let me be first to provide such encouragement.

But I really have to wonder about the wisdom of bringing big iron down below 8000 that far out of class B in VFR conditions. Actually, I don't "wonder" at all, I think it's unconscionably stupid. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8


Evan, here in Northern and Central Utah we have built a great relationship with the folks at Salt Lake Center, commercial, and Clover Center, military, over the last 3-4 years. We are fortunate to have a number of commercial pilots within the ranks of the club and one retired ATC pilot.

I flew out of the Minden NV and Truckee CA airports a couple of summers ago and was impressed with the documented procedures they have established with the Northern CA ATC for traffic going into and out of Reno NV. We used their documents, with permission, as templates and sat down with the folks at Salt Lake Air Traffic Control.

On the club web site http://utahsoaring.org/ we have provided three documents for all pilots (you can follow the links from the main page of the web site or use the links below)

Talking to Air Traffic Control - http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...%20Control.pdf this document reviews the "lingo" that best to use when speaking with ATC

Flow Maps:

SLC North http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...0N%20Plate.pdf
SLC South http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...0S%20Plate.pdf

These maps are designed to be printed and kept in glider cockpits for quick reference. They were developed by the folks at SLC ATC


Recommended Communication Procedures For Flying Gliders - http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...%20Rev%201.pdf

This document is lengthy but reviews all the airports currently used in Northern and Central UT by the club for soaring operations, procedures, communications and a link to SkyVector for all the STAR (arrival) and RD (departure) routes.

I would encourage you and your club to contact and meet with the appropriate ATC personal and discuss soaring activities, locations and procedures. I am sure you will be welcomed.

If you would like some contact information for the personal in SLC to provide to your local ATC folks, contact me directly and I will be happy to share.

Ron Gleason


PS - I will encourage the pilot that is retired ATC to provide an article to soaring magazine
  #65  
Old October 3rd 17, 04:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,780
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 9:24:48 AM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-4, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it.
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.


Hi Mic,

Wellllllll... since a lot of this is all new to me it's a cinch that it's new to many, if not most glider pilots. Never heard of a STAR until this discussion. Didn't know you could get free copies :-).

This would be a good opportunity for some knowledgeable glider + airline pilot or glider pilot + ATC guy to do an article or two. Let me be first to provide such encouragement.

But I really have to wonder about the wisdom of bringing big iron down below 8000 that far out of class B in VFR conditions. Actually, I don't "wonder" at all, I think it's unconscionably stupid. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8


At our operation in the Hudson valley of New York we have been dealing with this situation for many years. Heavies come over us at about 7000 feet, sometimes about 6000 feet, more than 40 miles from their destination at Newark.
I recently got a phone call from a man at Boston Center(they control this airspace)in response to a reported conflict in our area between a jet and a glider. Not characterized as a near miss(hit?).
He asked if we know about the jets flying overhead.
I said yes.
I described how we know of them and what we do to avoid conflict.
It turns out that the conflict was near a VOR about 10 miles away and happened on a day we were not flying. We avoid the area of the VOR. I explained this and why.
He then asked how many gliders we would have in the air, stating his assumption that it would be 3 or 4.
When I explained that it could be 5 to 20 at altitudes of surface to the top of the convective layer, and could commonly be 6000 to 7000 feet, he got very quiet.
Next he asked how many had transponders. I told him about 20%.
Response was "Oh".
I asked why they are so low 40 miles out and got no explanation.
The take away for me was:
1)ATC does not know we are there, even though charts depict our activity.
2) They wrongly assume everybody has a transponder.
3)They do not take the time to make themselves aware of avoidable conflict.
4)We have to make ourselves aware of the conflict conditions and avoid those places.
FWIW
UH
  #66  
Old October 3rd 17, 04:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ron Gleason
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 429
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Tuesday, 3 October 2017 09:04:27 UTC-6, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Tuesday, 3 October 2017 07:24:48 UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-4, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it..
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.


Hi Mic,

Wellllllll... since a lot of this is all new to me it's a cinch that it's new to many, if not most glider pilots. Never heard of a STAR until this discussion. Didn't know you could get free copies :-).

This would be a good opportunity for some knowledgeable glider + airline pilot or glider pilot + ATC guy to do an article or two. Let me be first to provide such encouragement.

But I really have to wonder about the wisdom of bringing big iron down below 8000 that far out of class B in VFR conditions. Actually, I don't "wonder" at all, I think it's unconscionably stupid. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8


Evan, here in Northern and Central Utah we have built a great relationship with the folks at Salt Lake Center, commercial, and Clover Center, military, over the last 3-4 years. We are fortunate to have a number of commercial pilots within the ranks of the club and one retired ATC pilot.

I flew out of the Minden NV and Truckee CA airports a couple of summers ago and was impressed with the documented procedures they have established with the Northern CA ATC for traffic going into and out of Reno NV. We used their documents, with permission, as templates and sat down with the folks at Salt Lake Air Traffic Control.

On the club web site http://utahsoaring.org/ we have provided three documents for all pilots (you can follow the links from the main page of the web site or use the links below)

Talking to Air Traffic Control - http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...%20Control.pdf this document reviews the "lingo" that best to use when speaking with ATC

Flow Maps:

SLC North http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...0N%20Plate.pdf
SLC South http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...0S%20Plate.pdf

These maps are designed to be printed and kept in glider cockpits for quick reference. They were developed by the folks at SLC ATC


Recommended Communication Procedures For Flying Gliders - http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...%20Rev%201.pdf

This document is lengthy but reviews all the airports currently used in Northern and Central UT by the club for soaring operations, procedures, communications and a link to SkyVector for all the STAR (arrival) and RD (departure) routes.

I would encourage you and your club to contact and meet with the appropriate ATC personal and discuss soaring activities, locations and procedures. I am sure you will be welcomed.

If you would like some contact information for the personal in SLC to provide to your local ATC folks, contact me directly and I will be happy to share.

Ron Gleason


PS - I will encourage the pilot that is retired ATC to provide an article to soaring magazine


One other note, all instructors within the club review these procedures with their students when appropriate. During the spring checkouts, all pilots must get a checkout to utilize club gliders, a review is done and the club sponsors 1-3 winter meetings and we review the procedures, ask questions and some years we role play and have a complete simulated radio discussion between ATC and the glider. The folks from SLC ATC have come to the winter meetings, answered questions, taken feedback and most importantly put a face to voice on the radio.
  #67  
Old October 3rd 17, 04:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 636
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 11:04:27 AM UTC-4, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Tuesday, 3 October 2017 07:24:48 UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-4, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it..
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.


Hi Mic,

Wellllllll... since a lot of this is all new to me it's a cinch that it's new to many, if not most glider pilots. Never heard of a STAR until this discussion. Didn't know you could get free copies :-).

This would be a good opportunity for some knowledgeable glider + airline pilot or glider pilot + ATC guy to do an article or two. Let me be first to provide such encouragement.

But I really have to wonder about the wisdom of bringing big iron down below 8000 that far out of class B in VFR conditions. Actually, I don't "wonder" at all, I think it's unconscionably stupid. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8


Evan, here in Northern and Central Utah we have built a great relationship with the folks at Salt Lake Center, commercial, and Clover Center, military, over the last 3-4 years. We are fortunate to have a number of commercial pilots within the ranks of the club and one retired ATC pilot.

I flew out of the Minden NV and Truckee CA airports a couple of summers ago and was impressed with the documented procedures they have established with the Northern CA ATC for traffic going into and out of Reno NV. We used their documents, with permission, as templates and sat down with the folks at Salt Lake Air Traffic Control.

On the club web site http://utahsoaring.org/ we have provided three documents for all pilots (you can follow the links from the main page of the web site or use the links below)

Talking to Air Traffic Control - http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...%20Control.pdf this document reviews the "lingo" that best to use when speaking with ATC

Flow Maps:

SLC North http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...0N%20Plate.pdf
SLC South http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...0S%20Plate.pdf

These maps are designed to be printed and kept in glider cockpits for quick reference. They were developed by the folks at SLC ATC


Recommended Communication Procedures For Flying Gliders - http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...%20Rev%201.pdf

This document is lengthy but reviews all the airports currently used in Northern and Central UT by the club for soaring operations, procedures, communications and a link to SkyVector for all the STAR (arrival) and RD (departure) routes.

I would encourage you and your club to contact and meet with the appropriate ATC personal and discuss soaring activities, locations and procedures. I am sure you will be welcomed.

If you would like some contact information for the personal in SLC to provide to your local ATC folks, contact me directly and I will be happy to share.

Ron Gleason


PS - I will encourage the pilot that is retired ATC to provide an article to soaring magazine


Hi Ron,

Great stuff, thank you for sharing!

We don't have this issue at my home club, but I travel... I'm quite interested in learning this stuff and raising awareness.

best,
Evan
  #68  
Old October 3rd 17, 05:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 127
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicagoyesterday?

On 10/02/2017 03:13 PM, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it.
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.


So I've seen the conflict described as taking place 43 nautical out at
6800 msl. That's not a wedding cake, that's a friggin pancake! Apart
from the traffic issues, you've got increased fuel burn down low, and
noise abatement issues. I'd sure like to hear who decided running
airliners that low was a good idea.

I live slightly farther away from a major international airport, and
both the arrivals and departures are a whole lot higher than that, even
accounting for a 5000 ft delta in airport elevations.

I agree with your recommendations, but getting a transponder installed
has got to be at the top of a list, and using it whenever in the air.
It's amazing how many people think they can guess when they need to turn
it on. Funny thing about accidents, you never see them coming.

  #69  
Old October 3rd 17, 05:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,039
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

It is really frustrating that for the most part, both the flying and non-flying public/lawmakers/administrators/controllers and even fellow aviators, have little to no understanding of how glider operate and what they can do. During the 18 meter nationals the CD had multiple calls with local Air Force Base, during one such call the CD was asked is the gliders could just stay within 5 miles of Uvalde, and I know the Air Force has gliders.


On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 8:04:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 9:24:48 AM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-4, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it..
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.


Hi Mic,

Wellllllll... since a lot of this is all new to me it's a cinch that it's new to many, if not most glider pilots. Never heard of a STAR until this discussion. Didn't know you could get free copies :-).

This would be a good opportunity for some knowledgeable glider + airline pilot or glider pilot + ATC guy to do an article or two. Let me be first to provide such encouragement.

But I really have to wonder about the wisdom of bringing big iron down below 8000 that far out of class B in VFR conditions. Actually, I don't "wonder" at all, I think it's unconscionably stupid. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8


At our operation in the Hudson valley of New York we have been dealing with this situation for many years. Heavies come over us at about 7000 feet, sometimes about 6000 feet, more than 40 miles from their destination at Newark.
I recently got a phone call from a man at Boston Center(they control this airspace)in response to a reported conflict in our area between a jet and a glider. Not characterized as a near miss(hit?).
He asked if we know about the jets flying overhead.
I said yes.
I described how we know of them and what we do to avoid conflict.
It turns out that the conflict was near a VOR about 10 miles away and happened on a day we were not flying. We avoid the area of the VOR. I explained this and why.
He then asked how many gliders we would have in the air, stating his assumption that it would be 3 or 4.
When I explained that it could be 5 to 20 at altitudes of surface to the top of the convective layer, and could commonly be 6000 to 7000 feet, he got very quiet.
Next he asked how many had transponders. I told him about 20%.
Response was "Oh".
I asked why they are so low 40 miles out and got no explanation.
The take away for me was:
1)ATC does not know we are there, even though charts depict our activity.
2) They wrongly assume everybody has a transponder.
3)They do not take the time to make themselves aware of avoidable conflict.

  #70  
Old October 3rd 17, 05:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ron Gleason
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 429
Default Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

On Tuesday, 3 October 2017 10:27:54 UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
It is really frustrating that for the most part, both the flying and non-flying public/lawmakers/administrators/controllers and even fellow aviators, have little to no understanding of how glider operate and what they can do. During the 18 meter nationals the CD had multiple calls with local Air Force Base, during one such call the CD was asked is the gliders could just stay within 5 miles of Uvalde, and I know the Air Force has gliders.


On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 8:04:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 9:24:48 AM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-4, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it.
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.

Hi Mic,

Wellllllll... since a lot of this is all new to me it's a cinch that it's new to many, if not most glider pilots. Never heard of a STAR until this discussion. Didn't know you could get free copies :-).

This would be a good opportunity for some knowledgeable glider + airline pilot or glider pilot + ATC guy to do an article or two. Let me be first to provide such encouragement.

But I really have to wonder about the wisdom of bringing big iron down below 8000 that far out of class B in VFR conditions. Actually, I don't "wonder" at all, I think it's unconscionably stupid. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8


At our operation in the Hudson valley of New York we have been dealing with this situation for many years. Heavies come over us at about 7000 feet, sometimes about 6000 feet, more than 40 miles from their destination at Newark.
I recently got a phone call from a man at Boston Center(they control this airspace)in response to a reported conflict in our area between a jet and a glider. Not characterized as a near miss(hit?).
He asked if we know about the jets flying overhead.
I said yes.
I described how we know of them and what we do to avoid conflict.
It turns out that the conflict was near a VOR about 10 miles away and happened on a day we were not flying. We avoid the area of the VOR. I explained this and why.
He then asked how many gliders we would have in the air, stating his assumption that it would be 3 or 4.
When I explained that it could be 5 to 20 at altitudes of surface to the top of the convective layer, and could commonly be 6000 to 7000 feet, he got very quiet.
Next he asked how many had transponders. I told him about 20%.
Response was "Oh".
I asked why they are so low 40 miles out and got no explanation.
The take away for me was:
1)ATC does not know we are there, even though charts depict our activity.
2) They wrongly assume everybody has a transponder.
3)They do not take the time to make themselves aware of avoidable conflict.
4)We have to make ourselves aware of the conflict conditions and avoid those places.
FWIW
UH


Johnathan I hear what you are saying but it is easy for the clubs and contest organizers to reach out and build awareness. Here in Northern Utah we work very close with SLC ATC, the folks at Clover Center for the MOA's and Restricted areas and Denver ATC during the Nephi contests/events.

We make them aware of the events and each day we send tasks sheets and other information to let know where we will be and when. If we are tasking through MOA's the folks at Clover will move activities if there are any. Yes, we check TFR's, NOTAM's and call them first thing in the morning before we decide to task through that area.

The folks at SLC will keep the jets higher for the arrival corridor that passes directly over the area west of the airport and the commonly used for start cylinders.

We have a direct number to ATC to let them know the exact time we start launching and we call them at the end of the contest day. It works well and adds minimal workload for the ground ops person.

The communication goes both ways. During the 2016 Nationals I got a call from ATC to let us know that a NOTAM was just filed for a temporary jump zone at one the airports along the task we had called. We were able to inform the pilots to be aware if they had to use that airport.

Should all be aware of us? Of course but they are not and building the awareness is easy and quite enlightening.

We also make sure they have the link to the SSA tracking site and they have really enjoyed watching along!
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Stinson Airliner pics 1 [04/11] - Chicago Municipal Airport - American Airlines - Stinson Model A Tri-Motor.jpg (1/1) Miloch Aviation Photos 0 August 14th 17 02:55 PM
Need to move a glider from Chicago to Los Angeles Maciek Arkuszewski Soaring 14 May 18th 16 11:59 PM
Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt Karen Soaring 70 October 23rd 10 05:27 AM
Glider-Airliner Near Miss jcarlyle Soaring 0 June 12th 07 04:52 PM
Report on "Old" Glider/airliner midair? Jim Kellett Soaring 5 October 13th 03 02:20 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.