Another glider crash?

I watched a ASW-20 pilot do the exact same thing (pulling the gear up) thinking he was deploying the spoilers. First flight in a friends ship, it looked like a prefect landing, but he just kept coming and coming. Flew right into the fence at the end of the runway! I'm not surprised, there are 3 handles, all the same shape, size and all clustered together on the left side of the cockpit. I believe they were all black also, but I think later on the spoiler handle was blue. Often thought the shape should be different, say rectangular for the spoilers, round for the gear and airfoil shaped for the flaps. As an old radar operator, I remember the primary control knobs were different........square for gain, rectangular for tilt, round for marks, etc. never looked at the knobs, just knew by feel.
JJ

At 18:32 21 September 2015, wrote:
On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 6:39:53 AM UTC-7, Tim Hanke wrote:
On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:45:48 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber
wrote:
"Deputies say Szymanowski was coming in too fast. He tried landing
twic=
e, and on the third try, came up short."
=20
What?
=20
The pilot was flying an ASWW-19, which per my understanding has a gear
ha=
ndle located adjacent to the spoiler handle. Several witnesses on the
groun=
d watched the landing gear go up and down as the pilot over flew the
entire=
length of the runway, turned around, and then overshoot the runway. Not
su=
re if dehydration was an issue here? may never know? Thoughts and prayers
w=
ith the pilot and his family.

- Strange that someone that has been regularly flying the 19 made that
mis=
take. The levers are clearly distinguishable - one goes from locked to
unlo=
cked position with a clear motion pattern and spoilers require just
linear
=
motion, plus both are pretty far apart.

Sadly a common occurrence never-the-less

The spoiler handle hangs down from a
horizontal rod and rotates freely. To use
it you normally rotate it counterclockwise
about 90°.

The gear handle sticks straight up lower
down and rotates clockwise just enough
to get out of the stop.

AS seems to have put effort in designing
decent ergonomics, but dehydration and
unfamiliarity with type can trump that.

Back in my student days, some
instructors told me to look at the spoilers
on the downwind check. If you're moving
the correct handle you will see them
move.

On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 3:45:09 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:

Back in my student days, some
instructors told me to look at the spoilers
on the downwind check. If you're moving
the correct handle you will see them
move.

I emphasize that with students as well. When you get to the landing checklist pull the divebrake/spoiler handle and look at the wing to see them operating. It's possible in my ASG-29 to pull "a handle" and feel something happen, but not what you expected. I've done it myself with the flap handle on my ASG-29. I found myself modulating flaps early on instead of the divebrakes. Luckily, I was looking at the wing and was able to recognize that I wasn't moving the correct handle.

P3

On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:13:54 PM UTC-4, Ron Gleason wrote:
Saratoga NY, news report here

http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s391... dium=twitter

Look at the thread "the sweetest ASW20B on the planet"-check the cockpit pictures-I see the 3 almost identical orange handles very close to each other.
Great ASW 20 though !
Dan

On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 6:39:53 AM UTC-7, Tim Hanke wrote:
On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:45:48 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
"Deputies say Szymanowski was coming in too fast. He tried landing twice, and on the third try, came up short."

What?

The pilot was flying an ASWW-19, which per my understanding has a gear handle located adjacent to the spoiler handle. Several witnesses on the ground watched the landing gear go up and down as the pilot over flew the entire length of the runway, turned around, and then overshoot the runway. Not sure if dehydration was an issue here? may never know? Thoughts and prayers with the pilot and his family.

I doubt dehydration. More likely distraction followed by tunnel vision. unfortunately a common thing. Something distracted the pilot (such as another aircraft in the pattern) resulted on pulling on the wrong handle without noticing. Next come the tunnel vision where the pilot is convinced something is wrong with the spoilers and keep trying to deploy them.
Same thing happened at Truckee few years ago and the pilot ended up at the bottom of the cliff after going the full length of the runway in each direction, luckily unhurt but glider destroyed.

Ramy

wrote 2015/09/22 at 00:29:

On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:13:54 PM UTC-4, Ron Gleason
wrote:
Saratoga NY, news report here

http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s391... dium=twitter


Look at the thread "the sweetest ASW20B on the planet"-check the
cockpit pictures-I see the 3 almost identical orange handles very
close to each other. Great ASW 20 though !

Dan, have a second look. Thei're wooden, and that's not stock.

Regards
Werner

I have watched two incidents of ASW15s ground effect flying across the
airfield with brakes shut and wheel going up and down. Quite amazing
performance!

An ASW15 pilot I once knew used to place a rubber band around the brake
handle. When he deployed the brake he thought "what's that rubber band
doing on the handle" and it reminded him to put the wheel down! A bit like
tying a knot in your tie.

I guess the converse is true. If it ain't got the rubber band on it then it
isn't the brake handle.

On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 3:45:09 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
The spoiler handle hangs down from a
horizontal rod and rotates freely. To use
it you normally rotate it counterclockwise
about 90°.

The gear handle sticks straight up lower
down and rotates clockwise just enough
to get out of the stop.

AS seems to have put effort in designing
decent ergonomics, but dehydration and
unfamiliarity with type can trump that.

There was an over run accident some years ago involving a CFI-G in an ASW-24. The spoilers never came out. Later, it was concluded that the pilot was pulling on the release handle (a bit like an early 1-26!).

Schleicher cockpit ergonomics are wonderful. In the 20, the gear, flap and spoiler handles are all on the left and use the same shape grip, but the controls feel and move in completely different ways. So when an accident like this happens, suspicions tend toward pilot incapacitation as the root cause. The ASW-24 example shows that moving the gear handle to the right side of the cockpit isn't a completely effective solution.

Back in my student days, some
instructors told me to look at the spoilers
on the downwind check. If you're moving
the correct handle you will see them
move.

We teach this. One part of the exercise is to discover what "1/2 spoilers" (determined by looking at the spoilers) requires in terms of control position and effort (varies by glider type). This thread illustrates another reason to do it.

Evan Ludeman

I noticed the same thing when taking the photos and video of th 20. See the thread for the video (early in video are many shots of the cockpit). It does seem like the handles are close together.

Great glider regardless.

I suppose we should be fitting different handles but most importantly, training pilots to have a procedure to ensure they are double checking the control reaction (looking at the spoilers for example) and visual handle location of their hand on the handle every time. Not an easy task.

Sean