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  #11  
Old September 13th 03, 02:15 PM
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(Ken Sandyeggo) wrote:


Just a point of curiousity. Accepting payment for flight instruction
in an experimental has been illegal unless it was a gyro with the PRA
exemption. I believe the rules have changed recently, but how did
Rotorway get away with giving lessons at their factory for all those
years in experimental helicopters? Did they say it was "free" if you
bought and built a kit?


Rotorway included the price of the dual training in the price of the
scorpion kit. However, I just got an email from their flight
instructor and he said that they now charge for the dual training in
the Exec. However, he said that it was mandatory for training that
you own a rotorway. He said it didn't matter which rotorway, just as
long as you owned a rotorway. Current training is only in the latest
exec model.

So, getting back to the Fixed Wing PPL being used to fly an
experimental helicopter - Since I don't actually have a PPL of any
kind, it would be a lot cheaper to just get the fixed wing. About
half the cost around here. So the real question is, if I got the
fixed wing PPL and flew the scorpion, could I count those hours toward
my heli-PPL?

Dennis H.


Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
Americans out of work, visit the following web site
and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

  #12  
Old September 13th 03, 09:51 PM
Steve Waltner
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In article , Ken
Sandyeggo wrote:
ust a point of curiousity. Accepting payment for flight instruction
in an experimental has been illegal unless it was a gyro with the PRA
exemption. I believe the rules have changed recently, but how did
Rotorway get away with giving lessons at their factory for all those
years in experimental helicopters? Did they say it was "free" if you
bought and built a kit?


This confusion is because you are thinking of the rules for
Experimental/Amatuer-Built. Obviously Rotorway couldn't get by with
calling their training ships Amateur-Built, so they are in one of the
other Experimental categories.

http://www.landings.com/ shows three N numbers that are registered to
Rotorway which I was able to easily find. These are N904, N906, N907.
The first two are Experimental/Market Survey, while the third appeard
to be a number they have reserved for future use. The Market Survey
registration allows the company to give demo rides and flight training
in an aircraft that has not gone through the FAR 23 certification
process.

Steve
  #13  
Old January 3rd 04, 05:55 PM
Stu
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I flew solo with a sign off from the CFI It requires renewing every 90
days. In fact the first time he signed me off he forgot to put the 90 day
thing in and I flew for awhile longer than 90 days.
I would sure be careful and keep the Scorpion at a hover until you get at
least 40hrs. successful. The inital hover time on a completed Safari is
20hrs. before it is flown in the pattern and the Safari doesn't have some of
the funny drive package you have in the Scorpion. The first pattern flite
involved an auto to insure that there was enough down pitch to get proper
blade speed.
Good luck (luck is better than skill)
Stu.
wrote in message
...

Most of the problems with the one I have are due to age. A lot of the
aluminum parts have surface oxidation that must be hand removed and
polished. I am planning on having all the aluminum parts hard
anodized so that they don't do that again.

The tail rotor slider mechanism was rusted and I had to work it pretty
hard to get it going again. I am planning on having the TR shaft hard
chrome plated so that it will wear better.

The steel frame is actually in remarkable shape. I'm not sure what
they used to paint it, but I hope to get something that good to
repaint it.

The only components that I am really worried about are the blades.
They only have about 25 hours on them, but also have age cracks in the
composite.

I haven't contacted BJ about the Scorpion One. I don't think he would
have time to talk to me since he is very busy with his helicycle
project. I have the blueprints for the Scorpion 2 and was considering
getting those for the One, but the One is almost identical to the 2 so
I'm not sure if I should bother.

The bent cable is for the collective. Its a nutty way of doing
things, but it does work. Its just not as good as a regular system.
The only real problem with the bent cable rotor head is that it does
not use elastomeric bearings. It uses unsealed thrust bearings
instead. However, because of the way the cable head works, they only
move when you actually move the collective. I'll probably have to
spend a bit of time every few hours of operation greasing them, but a
friend showed me a trick where I can grease them easily with a
hypodermic needle. Hopefully that will make operating it more
manageable.

I'm still not sure what to do about the license.

Dennis H.



"Stu Fields" wrote:

I had two Scorpion ones and sold them to a guy who had an A&P try to get
them going. They still have not been in the air. He had a lot of

trouble
with slipping tail rotor belts. There are some problems with the old

rotor
head. B.J Schramm, the designer should be contacted about those

problems.
I believe I heard him tell one person not to fly the version with the

looped
cable in the head. I used to fly a Benson gyro with a McCullough

engine.
It was a quiet sewing machine compared to the sound of the Evinrude

engine
in the Scorpion. Be very careful.
Stu Fields
wrote in message
...
"Gig Giacona" wrote:

You will have to be signed off by and instructor for that aircraft.

Do
you
already own a flyable Scorpion? You will most likely have to get

back in
the
R22 for your check ride.

My scorpion is a single seater and is not completely restored yet. I
checked with Rotorway, but it does not seem that there is any way to
get instruction in a scorpion one. I wonder if a scorpion 2 is close
enough. The scopion 2 and scorpion one are basically the same
helicopter with the 2 being bigger and wider.

It is starting to look like I'm going to have to get my certificate by
soloing in the R22 and then just switch to the scorpion afterwards.
It seems like thats a waste of money though since I will have to
relearn everything in the scorpion.

I have all the parts to the scorpion one, but I am not sure what to do
with the rotor blades. It looks like there are fine cracks in the
composite. I wonder if simply recoating them with new resin will be
good enough or if I have to rewrap them. They only have about 25
hours on them.

I will also say that the scorpion 1 was definitely not designed for
people with normal length legs. Its a real pain getting in and out of
it.

Dennis H.

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
Americans out of work, visit the following web site
and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm




Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
Americans out of work, visit the following web site
and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm





  #14  
Old January 7th 04, 05:10 AM
helicopterandy
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Dennis,
Do yourself (and your family) a favor and throw away all the Scorpion
junk.
I'm sory, but if you want to take ridculous risks, try tightrope
walking.
Seriously. For some reason most here using this forumn are obviously
kit chopper hobbysts and won't face the music and tell you that you're
gambling with your life fooling around w/ this junk.
Try Robinson. Schweitzer, Bell ect.
  #15  
Old January 7th 04, 11:53 AM
tamflyer
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Just two cents from an old gasser who has survived over 40 years of
helicopter flying
PLEASE think twice about old components
Robinson's 12 year limit is intended to do a lot more than sell
overhauls
Airplanes can tolerate age (and inevitable corrosion) on nearly
everything except wing spars and control cables
Helicopters/Gryos cannot tolerate corrosion without fatal results on
nearly anything
  #16  
Old January 7th 04, 03:39 PM
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Well, "junk" is in the eyes of the beholder I guess. I do have plans
for upgrading the Scorpion's rotor head and control systems at some
time. It currently uses the old cable-in-shaft system. Upgrading the
power transmission system to a transmission/shaft system will be a
little longer.

The first upgrade on the list is the landing gear. Scorpions have a
low (and thus dangerous) landing gear. The gear needs to be more like
an R22 so that the steel will cushion an impact with the ground.

There are several upgrades that I will be doing before I take it more
than a few feet up. The ignition system on the evinrude motor needs
attention. Its a solid state electronic module made in the late 60's.
I have heard rumors that this unit can fail. I want to convert to
some sort of makeshift dual ignition system like the one that the R22
uses.

And the list goes on. Don't worry about me and my bird. I also plan
to eddy current test or magnaflux all the critical components.
Speaking of which, does anybody know if x-ray is a better test than
eddy current when testing aluminum parts?

Dennis H.

(helicopterandy) wrote:

Dennis,
Do yourself (and your family) a favor and throw away all the Scorpion
junk.
I'm sory, but if you want to take ridculous risks, try tightrope
walking.
Seriously. For some reason most here using this forumn are obviously
kit chopper hobbysts and won't face the music and tell you that you're
gambling with your life fooling around w/ this junk.
Try Robinson. Schweitzer, Bell ect.


Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

  #18  
Old January 8th 04, 04:32 AM
Ryan Ferguson
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Man. Your messages about flight training and your experimental
helicopter just give me cold chills. I'd have to agree with the
others who've suggested that you give this another thought. Do you
have kids? A family? It's not worth it, guy.

I'm not trying to disparage your helicopter in any way. And it's not
my intent to hurt yer feelings. I think it's great that you're
enthusiastic about rotary wing flight. But I read your words about
the equipment you're using, and how you're trying to shave the costs
off of your training by earning some of your solo time in your
homebuilt. Okay, first things first: 15 hours is a tiny slice no
matter what. You will not be proficient at 15 hours. You will not be
proficient at 30, and probably not 45. Even if you're amazingly
talented, you will not be ready to handle an emergency in that thing
at 75 hours. And the type of failures you're likely to encounter will
be more severe, unpredictable and vastly more difficult to counteract
than in an R-22.

Is your life really worth this? Rent an R-22! If it takes twice as
long and twice as much moolah to get your ticket, so be it! Plus you
can bring a passenger.

Side note. Forget the Scorpion for meeting solo requirements. (You
do realize you need an endorsement for that specific helicopter,
right?) No sane instructor would sign you off to solo that thing.
Lord have mercy.

-Ryan
(CFII, airplanes and helicopters)
  #19  
Old January 8th 04, 03:09 PM
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The R22 is a fine helicopter. However, there are those that fly jet
rangers that would call the R22 a "Death Trap". You suggested that
the Scorpion is not safe. However, you did not specify 'why' you
don't consider it safe.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I need cold, hard facts and
not general rumors that the ship is dangerous. What is specifically
bad about the Scorpion? I realize that there are many unorthodox
things being done, but is that really bad?

Take the cable-in-shaft control head for example. The entire rotor
head tilts on a U-Joint rather than cyclicly changining the pitch as
does a traditional helicopter. You might look at that and wonder why
BJ Shramm did it that way.

Here is the answer. At the time, the patent on elastomeric bearings
was still in effect. BJ could not use them. He elected to use
traditional thrust roller bearings. The problem with using these
bearings is that if they are under a load and are used cyclicly
(rocking back and forth with every revolution), the grease rolls out
of the way after a few minutes of operation and the bearings have to
operate without lubrication. This results in a failure.

To avoid this problem, BJ tilted the entire rotor head rather than
changing the pitch cyclicly. In fact, the pitch on the blades only
changes when the collective is moved and not the cyclic. This results
in the grease being retained for a longer period of time. It still
needs frequent regreasing, but at least you don't need a new set of
bearings after each hour of flight.

But getting back to the main point, I really do want to hear about
specific problems with the Scorpion. I want to correct these problems
as much as possible.

Dennis H.

(Ryan Ferguson) wrote:

Man. Your messages about flight training and your experimental
helicopter just give me cold chills. I'd have to agree with the
others who've suggested that you give this another thought. Do you
have kids? A family? It's not worth it, guy.

Side note. Forget the Scorpion for meeting solo requirements. (You
do realize you need an endorsement for that specific helicopter,
right?) No sane instructor would sign you off to solo that thing.
Lord have mercy.


Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

  #20  
Old January 8th 04, 05:01 PM
Andrew Crane
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wrote in message
...

To avoid this problem, BJ tilted the entire rotor head rather than
changing the pitch cyclicly. In fact, the pitch on the blades only
changes when the collective is moved and not the cyclic. This results
in the grease being retained for a longer period of time. It still
needs frequent regreasing, but at least you don't need a new set of
bearings after each hour of flight.


OK - silly question. On the face of it, it seems to make a lot of sense to
do it this way

- simple connection - you could probably lose the swashplate somehow too
- fewer cyclical forces on components
- less chance of mast bumping

What are the downsides other than potentially odd handling?

I should imagine that the control forces would be enormous and pushing the
rotor head forwards would cause the fuselage to pitch backwards for a
start-off.

Regards
Andrew

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