Best performing Vario?

On Oct 2, 1:43*am, wrote:
Hey John:

How about we all look outside for things we would prefer not to midair?

The nature and volume of discussion regarding "climb maximizer" screens suggests that many pilots are seriously focused "head-down" while thermaling..

I know everyone will soundly proclaim that this is absolutely not the case and that they are maintaining an appropriate traffic scan and situational awareness while simultaneously checking the maximizer screen but I do not believe it.

Are glider pilots becoming the airborne equivalent of the modern teen-ager who walks into the shopping mall fountain, head-down while staring at their electronic devices? *I tend to believe this is true which leaves me horrified.

The solution? *FLARM, of course!

Addictions come in many flavors.

I am sympathetic to Mark's worry. It gets worse (for me) when I
consider how many of YOU want real time wx in the cockpit, flarm radar
with glide slope to the best gaggle and goodness know what else. I
think many instrument makers are breeding very nearsighted video ga...
er, "pilots".

The WP optimizer is worthy of a comment because it was reasonably well
designed for minimum pilot fuss. It told you when to roll wings level
to center the thermal and as these things go, didn't require much
attention. I did feel like I needed to go shower after using it, but
as I've said elsewhere, my problem was actually a buggy vario.

The XCSoar optimizer I thought was a joke. What XCSoar did that I
thought really handy was calculate the center of lift and display this
on the map, drifted for calculated wind. This saved my ass a couple
of times when trying to dig out at the end of the day. You know the
scenario: planning your landing, oops here's a thermal, three turns
going up, start to relax a little and whoa!, where'd the little
stinker go? If it hadn't dissipated, XCSoar generally knew where the
center was. Obviously, one had to be zoomed in, real close, for this
to be effective.

The track function in CN sort of works for optimizing when zoomed all
the way in, though it becomes much less useful in direct proportion to
wind because it simply reports lift vs your (2d) gps location
history. I hope people are not over using this. To the extent that
we need a thermal centering tool in CN, I hope we can come up with
something better (it's not the top priority). Imo the current
presentation isn't "efficient" enough. The whole strength of CN is
hitting you with all the info you need at any given instant, at a
glance. We want your eyeballs pointed outside the cockpit.

T8

Mr Unknown and other concerned parties may not be aware that the Winpilot optimizer provides a beep tone when it thinks you should open up your circle to recenter your thermal. It does a pretty good job of helping out if your attention drifts and you are no longer doing your thermalling work just right. In crowded circumstancs the WP optimizer can be used without looking down at all.

This audio tone feature is part of the WP Optimizer functionality that CN should be emulating. I'm happy to hear that the CN code is being actively improved but please don't relegate this to low priority.

With all this discussion of various thermal centering devices, one should also mention Themi. No pretty pictures, just two bright LEDs and some sophisticated software that helps you find and stay in the center of drifting thermals. Takes a bit to get used to it, but I find that I either make a decision to move just before my Themi tells me to, or when I'm clueless in a shifty core, I just follow the bright lights and they lead me back to the lift. The nice part of the Themi system is that it takes almost no heads down time - you catch the LEDs out of the corner of your eye and adjust pretty automatically.

Combined with SYMs lift dots on your trace, makes it pretty easy (most of the time...)

Plus it's an IGC logger and GPS source. A bit awkward to download, but makes for a good backup logger.

Kirk
66

I find the LX V7 Vario to be very intuitive and solid. Price to performance is very hard to argue with.

I considered the ClearNav vario at first but it seemed to take a very long time to develop...which made me wonder. After years of waiting, the CN vario was STILL was not ready at the SSA convention (RENO) last winter where I bought a V7 at a nice price. I knew ClearNav changed software developers mid stream which can never be a good sign.

In terms of performance, all the modern variometers use multiple accelerometers and custom algorithms to maximize the accuracy, smoothness etc of the instrument. They all should be a step ahead of the older generation units. So the folks claiming it is smooth, etc vs. their 302's are not really saying much in comparison to all modern vario's currently available. They are all better, smoother, more advanced than the older vario's. The question is who has used them all and made any quantitative analysis of what one performs better. Answer: nobody has. Subjective at best here.

Also, the ClearNav vario is a bit boring and "plain Jane." Basically a 302 look. No color, no modern UI. The V7 shows me 4 key pieces of vario information (electronic needles in addition to a mechanical needle) at once via symbols as well as numeric information. The ClearNav vario is a upgraded 302 with the same single mechanical needle and a couple numeric readouts. Not a ground up new vario in my opinion. No UI advancements.

It is clear to me that the Butterfly vario is the most powerful vario instrument available, and also the latest to be developed although all of the manufactures are constantly refining their firmware (improving or fixing errors). From what I have heard it is really nice. But at $3500 it is very expensive. An entire LX 8000 or 8080 flight computer (including essentially a V7 vario...V5 in this case) is $5000. I was close to buying the Butterfly.

For what it's worth I chose a V7 and for $1500 bucks it has been excellent. I run it with a Colibri II (GPS) and a Dell Streak 5 running XC Soar. This combination is a exceptional set-up in a racing glider. And also VERY affordable.

Sean
F2

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:
In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.



Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.



I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical.



Which unit did it for you?

On Monday, October 1, 2012 10:43:12 PM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
Hey John:



How about we all look outside for things we would prefer not to midair?



The nature and volume of discussion regarding "climb maximizer" screens suggests that many pilots are seriously focused "head-down" while thermaling..



I know everyone will soundly proclaim that this is absolutely not the case and that they are maintaining an appropriate traffic scan and situational awareness while simultaneously checking the maximizer screen but I do not believe it.



Are glider pilots becoming the airborne equivalent of the modern teen-ager who walks into the shopping mall fountain, head-down while staring at their electronic devices? I tend to believe this is true which leaves me horrified.



The solution? FLARM, of course!



Addictions come in many flavors.

This is why presentation is so important. All of these climb maximizers are working with the same data. WP is doing a much better job of presenting it.. On SYMs version, you will be studying the screen trying to interpret it - on WP a 1/2 second glance (quite literally) is all that is required.

This is also why I am concerned about it taking 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. In terms of eyes-in-the-cockpit, that is a much more serious situation, requiring maybe 30 seconds of concentrated effort - vs. 3 seconds or so for the better products.

On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:56:22 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:

This is also why I am concerned about it taking 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. In terms of eyes-in-the-cockpit, that is a much more serious situation, requiring maybe 30 seconds of concentrated effort - vs. 3 seconds or so for the better products.

Please explain how it takes you 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. Are you talking about making a task change inflight? That takes 8 total from map to map, to change or add a tp in a task. Or are you talking about selecting a new tp to steer to? That takes 3 actions. SYM is not the best, but it's not bad either.

Kirk

I don't like the switching in my CAI302. It seems I have to turn greater
than 180 degrees before it switches and, if I roll out for a couple of
seconds to shift my thermal, it will switch back to cruise mode, requiring
another 180+ degrees before switching back to circling mode. ... Or maybe
that's my XCSoar program. I'll have to give it a close look today if the
winds aren't howling.


"Andrzej Kobus" wrote in message
...
On Oct 1, 12:02 pm, "Dan Marotta" wrote:
Years back, I installed a simple toggle switch on top of the stick in my
LS-6. Switch forward meant "Go Fast", switch back meant "Thermal". Easy
and intuitive, no reaching to the panel to switch between cruise and climb
mode.

wrote in message

...







On Sunday, September 30, 2012 9:16:24 PM UTC-4, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
Can anyone tell me how CN switches from Cruise to Climb with the

software available (assuming no switch installed)?

In the case of my vario, it showed up with a switch already wired in. A
software update came along about the same time that enabled automatic
switching at 65kts. Unfortunately you can only do one or the other right
now; I couldn't find a config screen in the vario to change that. The
change has to be done using their profile generator program on a PC.

The switch was easy to install in the panel, but
it's a pain to have to fiddle with it whenever you want to start working
a thermal. 65kts is just too fast in my plane for searching for lift
down low (it's about MC 1.5kts for me).

This does seem to be a work in progress however. I'm hoping for a
circling
detector at some point.

-- Matt

It is the 21st century why would I need switches? CAI 302 does great
switching by itself and it was not designed yesterday. As a consumer I
would expect ClearNav to be at least as good as CAI 302. I hope it
happens. It would be nice to have a release schedule at least with
things like electronic compensation and climb/run switching. I would
consider these to be basic features of a modern variometer. I hope
this happens soon.

Dan, CAI 302 switches after 7s from the time it detects change in
direction (if the change continues). Since when you start turning it
takes a couple of sec to get to the 40-45 deg turn so it is more
likely the switch will happen in less than 90 deg but no more than 120
deg and if your turn is shallow than even in fewer degrees. If you run
your vario in relative netto there is nothing you need to wait for
anyway since the needle already shows you the right value provided you
are flying with speed close to what you need to to climb.

My experience with CAI 302 is very good. As others said it is a very
good variometer.

On Oct 5, 11:39*am, "Dan Marotta" wrote:
I don't like the switching in my CAI302. *It seems I have to turn greater
than 180 degrees before it switches and, if I roll out for a couple of
seconds to shift my thermal, it will switch back to cruise mode, requiring
another 180+ degrees before switching back to circling mode. *... Or maybe
that's my XCSoar program. *I'll have to give it a close look today if the
winds aren't howling.

"Andrzej Kobus" wrote in message

...
On Oct 1, 12:02 pm, "Dan Marotta" wrote:









Years back, I installed a simple toggle switch on top of the stick in my
LS-6. Switch forward meant "Go Fast", switch back meant "Thermal". Easy
and intuitive, no reaching to the panel to switch between cruise and climb
mode.

wrote in message

...

On Sunday, September 30, 2012 9:16:24 PM UTC-4, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
Can anyone tell me how CN switches from Cruise to Climb with the

software available (assuming no switch installed)?

In the case of my vario, it showed up with a switch already wired in. A
software update came along about the same time that enabled automatic
switching at 65kts. Unfortunately you can only do one or the other right
now; I couldn't find a config screen in the vario to change that. The
change has to be done using their profile generator program on a PC.

The switch was easy to install in the panel, but
it's a pain to have to fiddle with it whenever you want to start working
a thermal. 65kts is just too fast in my plane for searching for lift
down low (it's about MC 1.5kts for me).

This does seem to be a work in progress however. I'm hoping for a
circling
detector at some point.

-- Matt

It is the 21st century why would I need switches? CAI 302 does great
switching by itself and it was not designed yesterday. As a consumer I
would expect ClearNav to be at least as good as CAI 302. I hope it
happens. It would be nice to have a release schedule at least with
things like electronic compensation and climb/run switching. I would
consider these to be basic features of a modern variometer. I hope
this happens soon.

On 10/5/2012 5:56 AM, jfitch wrote:
This is why presentation is so important. All of these climb
maximizers are working with the same data. WP is doing a much better
job of presenting it. On SYMs version, you will be studying the
screen trying to interpret it - on WP a 1/2 second glance (quite
literally) is all that is required.

When I was using SYM and it's "thermal assistant", a half second was all
it took to interpret the screen: basically, "Where are the big red
bubbles"? I don't recall ever studying the screen; often, the audio
alert to level the wings was enough - no glance needed. In fact, I found
it most useful when I was distracted doing other things and had little
time to pay attention to the screen or even the vario. By "Things", I
mean stopping the propeller and stowing the engine, keeping track of
another glider or two in the thermal, taking pictures, desperately
looking around for lift indications while attempting a low save - stuff
like that.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Friday, October 5, 2012 8:04:55 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:56:22 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:



This is also why I am concerned about it taking 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. In terms of eyes-in-the-cockpit, that is a much more serious situation, requiring maybe 30 seconds of concentrated effort - vs. 3 seconds or so for the better products.



Please explain how it takes you 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. Are you talking about making a task change inflight? That takes 8 total from map to map, to change or add a tp in a task. Or are you talking about selecting a new tp to steer to? That takes 3 actions. SYM is not the best, but it's not bad either.



Kirk

I am talking about an in-flight addition or replacement of turnpoint in a task. When I do it in SYM it takes 9 plus however much scrolling is involved in finding the turn point. Maybe there is an easier way than the ones I have figured out? MenuTask(select where or what you want to changeInsert....(scroll to turnpointhiglightSelectOkOk - 9+, isn't it? This is the worst of the programs I have actually tried in flight. A few of the buttons are small and hard to hit in turbulence, for example the ellipsis (...). Even just deleting a point is 7 buttons.

I don't think I have counted them up on XCSoar. WP is 4+ and less fiddly buttons too. iGlide is one!