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#11
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In article ,
Ray Lovinggood wrote: Ask the instructors about other gliders, as well, but also find out if the ship you are leaning towards has a CG hook or a nose hook. Flying aero-tow with a CG hook may (will!) be a bit trickier than flying aero-tow with a nose hook. If you get a ship with a CG hook and you launch via aero-tow, make sure you can learn all you can from the instructors before you make that first launch. Or fly a two seater with a CG hook. I fly a Janus with a CG hook. I know that you need to be very careful not to get too high, least it start to "winch launch" behind the towplane, but frankly I don't think the CG hook makes it noticably harder to fly a normal aerotow than, say, a Grob Twin. The very sensitive and light all-flying tailplane, on the other hand, does keep you awake -- it's a *far* bigger factor than the CG hook. The biggest annoyance actually is that unless you're reasonably high behind the tug the rope tends to catch a little on the nosewheel and make a twang as it passes from side to side. -- Bruce |
#12
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Depends where you are.
There are winches at every club I have ever visited in South Africa. At my club we gave up on Aerotow 8 years ago. It is expensive. It is slow. It is more dangerous in some ways. We have predictable enough thermals that we have very low 'relight' incidence. That said, you need aerotow when you have long wings, or are carrying water or need the height or physical displacement to be able to contact lift. The nose hooks on our gliders are pristine, make us an offer... Stephen Szikora wrote: Why wouldn't you "go that far"? Every glider should be equipped with a nose hook. In today's world, how many of us will ever fly off a winch? The nose hook should be standard with the c of g hook optional, not the other way around! We should insist on nose hooks on all new gliders and stop letting our knuckle-dragging egos cling to the past. This is what prompted the LBA to mandate the installation of nose hooks for airtow in Germany. I wouldn't go that far, but replacing the tug's Schweitzer hook that can't be released under a strong up-load with a Tost hook that can makes a lot of sense. Bill Daniels |
#13
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I flew about 1000h in my ASW24.
I never had a wing down situation at the start with equally loaded ballast. I always take off with the brakes pulled - not to over roll the rope on asphalt - to give more control to the ailerons - have lass influence of propeller gusts with side wind I cannot understand that mostly only competition pilots use this start procedure. If the aileron response is too sluggish in circling, then your circle speed is too low. The ASW24 only climbs well, if you fly it at least 10km/h above stall speed. I modified my ASW24 before the WGC1995 in Omarama NZ to B profiling and attached the winglets. I always flew the ASW24 about 3-5kg/m2 lighter than my friends did with Discus, DG300.... In this configuration I climbed the same, but still glided better above 150km/h. The ASW24 cannot be flown like an LS4 - pull in the climb until it shakes and then let go a bit. It needs more training to fly the ship properly, to get the performance it has. You also have to fly proper yaw. All slender fuselage designs need to be flown within less yaw tolerance to keep the airflow along the airframe turbulence "free". With properly installed winglets you take the feet off the pedals and the 24 centres yaw itself (that works for quite all winglet gliders). Beginners must be told, that the 24 does not shake the elevator before stalling. But the stalling behaviour within the proper CG is forgiving. The glider is easy to fly, but needs to be flown more precisely to have fun. The 24 has good stability and damping behaviour. You can trim it, let go the stick "and eat a sandwich" (I would not try in a Discus). Chris Hostettler "Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message ... Harry wrote: would you recommend this ship for a recently licensed pilot ??? comments welcome! regards Harry We had 2 ASW24 in my club, I had flights in both, one of them has winglets and not the other one. This last one was recently destroyed in an accident. I find some pecularities of these gliders are not really suited for beginners, but they are nevertheless very good and safe gliders, as proven by the fact that the pilot who had the accident was able to walk out of the glider and ask for help at the next house. What I dislike in these gliders is the lack of efficiency of the ailerons at low speed, probably due to their small size, especially at the beginning of ground roll, where they have a marked tendency to drop a wing. The fact that they have only a CG hook (but maybe specific to the 2 in my club) doesn't help. Beside that this ship is a relatively high performance ship and as a consequence, as in any such ship, speed increases quickly with nose down attitude, which may make speed control difficult for a beginner. In my club there is a sequence of glider types through which you have to go as your experience grows, namely ASK21, ASK23, LS4, Pegase, ASW24, Discus, LS6. There is not a true transition between ASW24 and Discus, they are considered as equivalent as far as pilot's skill and experience is concerned, however I find the Discus is easier to fly than the ASW24. The pilot who had the accident is the owner of a Ventus 2a he could not fly this day because a missing annual and some people suggested that one of the factor lending to the accident was his lack of training on a ship with a handling significantly different from his usual glider. |
#14
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I have an LS4 with a belly hook and have had "moments" aerotowing from
a hard runway with a crosswind component where the metal tailskid allowed the glider's tail to weathercock very easily. Last year's Christmas present was a tailwheel to replace the skid and the directional control on the ground is much improved. Martin Joe Lacour wrote in message ... I have recently bought an LS-4A with a CG hook. What kind of problems did you have with aero-towing with a DG hook? Joe On Tuesday, July 22, 2003, at 05:15 PM, Glider Pilot Network wrote: ------------------------------------------------------------ Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaring Subject: ASW 24 WL for beginner ? Author: Dhofstee Date/Time: 22:10 22 July 2003 ------------------------------------------------------------ Ray Lovinggood wrote: If you get a ship with a CG hook and you launch via aero-tow, make sure you can learn all you can from the instructors before you make that first launch. Didn't do that, nearly became a statistic... One of the two moments in my (never ending) "training" that I don't want to repeat. Ray Lovinggood Carrboro, North Carolina, USA Is that the same Ray that was present then? ;-) David NL ------------------------------------------------------------ |
#15
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#16
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The poster that you are replying to below seems to be a Canadian. Therefore
you should have written "Thankfully Canada is not the only country on this planet..." or "Thankfully North America is not the only continent on this planet...". Otherwise you are just betraying your prejudice. "tango4" wrote in message news:bfl3d9 ... Thankfully America is not the only country on this planet. In Germany ( another country in the world, in a place called Europe ) where these aircraft are manufactured, winch launching is common. A hook placed at the centre CG position is perfectly acceptable for both aerotow and winch launching wheras a nose hook is only good ( effectively ) for aerotow. Ian "Stephen Szikora" wrote in message .. . Why wouldn't you "go that far"? Every glider should be equipped with a nose hook. In today's world, how many of us will ever fly off a winch? The nose hook should be standard with the c of g hook optional, not the other way around! We should insist on nose hooks on all new gliders and stop letting our knuckle-dragging egos cling to the past. This is what prompted the LBA to mandate the installation of nose hooks for airtow in Germany. I wouldn't go that far, but replacing the tug's Schweitzer hook that can't be released under a strong up-load with a Tost hook that can makes a lot of sense. Bill Daniels |
#17
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Steve B wrote:
What did you experience or learn... I am curious what not to do! Don't tow with CG hook without a proper briefing (no pun intended). The effects are (maybe there is more): -A nose hook stabilizes direction of the glider. With CG hook, windvane (??) effect is much stronger. If necessary, put the opposite wing on the ground. -stick must be held in forward position so glider doesn't rotate directly (when enough airspeed is obtained). -glider is more nervous on elevator in tow. Again: Don't tow with CG hook without a proper briefing. Knowledge is only part of the training. |
#18
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"Bruce Greeff" wrote in message ... Depends where you are. There are winches at every club I have ever visited in South Africa. At my club we gave up on Aerotow 8 years ago. It is expensive. It is slow. It is more dangerous in some ways. We have predictable enough thermals that we have very low 'relight' incidence. That said, you need aerotow when you have long wings, or are carrying water or need the height or physical displacement to be able to contact lift. The nose hooks on our gliders are pristine, make us an offer... I agree. Bill Daniels |
#19
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"dhofstee" a écrit dans le message de ... .. -stick must be held in forward position so glider doesn't rotate directly (when enough airspeed is obtained). Err, no. Stick must be held in full aft position to insure yaw stability during early ground roll. After that, stick must be used to take off at the desired airspeed (either by pushing or pulling). If this seems too difficult, don't fly solo. |
#20
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FWIW,
My experience airotowing using a belly hook has been limited to my PIK 20B, fitted with Mazak winglets, using the Aussie low-tow technique. Take-off procedure is stock standard: 1. Select full negative flap (-8 deg) 2. Select full forward trim 3. Hold the ship on the ground with back stick until full aileron control established. 4. Ease stick forward and ease flaps to neutral. Ship lifts off with no further elevator input. 5. Hold ship at 5-10 feet until tug lifts off and rises above glider. 6. Glider follows just under tug slip-stream. ( If there is a cross wind hold the ship on ground longer until just before tug lifts off). The above gives excellent directional control on the ground with no tendency to drop a wing or drift off-line. Ropes are standard 55 metres length. In the air (low tow position) directional stability is excellent but one needs to read changes to the tug's angle of bank quickly. Only had one (short-term) scare when, in my first competition, the tug went into a 45 degree RH bank into a thermal at 600'. Took a few milliseconds to regain my equilibrium!! Only had one other experience of concern when an experienced tuggie persuaded me to undertake an outlanding retrieve (from a remote airfield) using a 35 meter rope - an experience I didn't enjoy and wouldn't recommend. Overall, aerotowing with the belly hook hasn't presented any difficulties worth worrying about and well-intentioned (doom and gloom) predictions by instructors and winch drivers fortunately have proved groundless. Geoff Vincent Mangalore Gliding Club Australia VH-GAX On 23 Jul 2003 05:32:18 -0700, (Hank Nixon) wrote: (Harry) wrote in message m... would you recommend this ship for a recently licensed pilot ??? comments welcome! regards Harry Reply: This depends on the experienceyou have at this time and how your training was done. The '24 is a very honest glider with excellent stabilty. Early versions without winglets do exhibit some wing tip drop at stall if not well coordinated. That said, there is reliable warning. This is helped a lot by the factory added winglets and even more by aftermarket winglets in use in some countries. Speed control is important in landing but not remarkably so. The '24 was the first of the new generation of gliders with enhanced safety as an important part of the design. Many manufacturers are just now starting to catch up. These include progressive failure in the cockpit area, Upper safety beam in the cockpit, seat pan design, powerful hydraulic brake, landing gear designed to fail progresively absorbing energy, and other detail features. Towing is honest with CG hook. Most in Europe will have the forward nose hook installed. If flying with 30M ropes, I would suggest nose hook for added safety. If you were trained in modern glass, get some spin training and a few hours in LS4 or similar and go for it. I owned a '24 for 13 years and really enjoyed it. Good luck UH |
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