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Third class abroad



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 16th 08, 12:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]
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Posts: 2,969
Default Third class abroad

Apparently, the FAA third is not valid abroad unless specifically allowed
by the coutry you're flying in.

An FAA Class 3 Medical is not issued in accordance with ICAO specifically
because the US filed differences with Annex 3. Therefore the medical is
only valid within the confines of the United States.

Doesn't matter what the reg if the airplane is, either..


Bertie
  #2  
Old August 16th 08, 05:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Sylvain
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Posts: 400
Default Third class abroad

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Apparently, the FAA third is not valid abroad unless specifically allowed
by the coutry you're flying in.


Surprising. Any specifics? e.g., which country did not recognize the
FAA Class-III? in what circumstance? (I mean, flying a N- registered
aircraft or a locally registered aircraft)? who made the call (local
aviation authority official, or some busy body imposing made up rules
on the spot -- that I have seen happen a few times :-) was it a
class-III per se, or a Class-II or better that had expired into a
Class-III? (this one can cause confusion as well, even though it
is spelled out on the piece of paper proper); was it an unrestricted
Class-III, or does it bear some kind of restriction?

--Sylvain
  #3  
Old August 16th 08, 10:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,969
Default Third class abroad

Sylvain wrote in
t:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Apparently, the FAA third is not valid abroad unless specifically
allowed by the coutry you're flying in.


Surprising. Any specifics? e.g., which country did not recognize
the FAA Class-III?


Almost all of them, I think.

in what circumstance? (I mean, flying a N-
registered aircraft or a locally registered aircraft)?


Both. your FAA licence is not valid anywhere outside the US without
express permission of the local authority.

who made the
call (local aviation authority official, or some busy body imposing
made up rules on the spot -- that I have seen happen a few times :-)
was it a class-III per se, or a Class-II or better that had expired
into a Class-III? (this one can cause confusion as well, even though
it is spelled out on the piece of paper proper); was it an
unrestricted Class-III, or does it bear some kind of restriction?


The FAA are responsible for this. When they degraded the class three
below international standards. It was a tradeoff. I think it's mostly
the time thing, but I think they lowered standards in other areas as
well. Lower eyesight, maybe I don't know. This allows a lot more people
to fly in the US and all anyone who wants to fly abroad has to do is get
a class 2, so it seems like a good idea to me.
I got the info from a friend of mine who's an examiner in Europe. I put
it to him that it would be legal to fly a US reg airplane with a
standard private anywhere in the world, and he told me that while this
used to be the case, it is no longer..


Bertie
  #4  
Old August 16th 08, 02:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Peter Clark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 538
Default Third class abroad

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 09:16:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

Sylvain wrote in
et:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Apparently, the FAA third is not valid abroad unless specifically
allowed by the coutry you're flying in.


Surprising. Any specifics? e.g., which country did not recognize
the FAA Class-III?


Almost all of them, I think.

in what circumstance? (I mean, flying a N-
registered aircraft or a locally registered aircraft)?


Both. your FAA licence is not valid anywhere outside the US without
express permission of the local authority.

who made the
call (local aviation authority official, or some busy body imposing
made up rules on the spot -- that I have seen happen a few times :-)
was it a class-III per se, or a Class-II or better that had expired
into a Class-III? (this one can cause confusion as well, even though
it is spelled out on the piece of paper proper); was it an
unrestricted Class-III, or does it bear some kind of restriction?


The FAA are responsible for this. When they degraded the class three
below international standards. It was a tradeoff. I think it's mostly
the time thing, but I think they lowered standards in other areas as
well. Lower eyesight, maybe I don't know. This allows a lot more people
to fly in the US and all anyone who wants to fly abroad has to do is get
a class 2, so it seems like a good idea to me.
I got the info from a friend of mine who's an examiner in Europe. I put
it to him that it would be legal to fly a US reg airplane with a
standard private anywhere in the world, and he told me that while this
used to be the case, it is no longer..


In all honesty, I know a number of people who would really like to see
the exact regulatory reasoning with citations as to why a pilot with
an FAA pilot certificate and a valid 3rd class medical flying an N
registered aircraft isn't legal outside of the US any longer,
including the AME who just did my 2nd class medical last week who is
also a pilot and knows nothing about this subject we chatted
specifically about during the visit.
  #5  
Old August 16th 08, 03:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,969
Default Third class abroad

Peter Clark wrote in
:

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 09:16:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

Sylvain wrote in
news:dLqdnXWwn7dTyTvVnZ2dnUVZ_qTinZ2d@speakeasy. net:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Apparently, the FAA third is not valid abroad unless specifically
allowed by the coutry you're flying in.

Surprising. Any specifics? e.g., which country did not recognize
the FAA Class-III?


Almost all of them, I think.

in what circumstance? (I mean, flying a N-
registered aircraft or a locally registered aircraft)?


Both. your FAA licence is not valid anywhere outside the US without
express permission of the local authority.

who made the
call (local aviation authority official, or some busy body imposing
made up rules on the spot -- that I have seen happen a few times :-)
was it a class-III per se, or a Class-II or better that had expired
into a Class-III? (this one can cause confusion as well, even

though
it is spelled out on the piece of paper proper); was it an
unrestricted Class-III, or does it bear some kind of restriction?


The FAA are responsible for this. When they degraded the class three
below international standards. It was a tradeoff. I think it's mostly
the time thing, but I think they lowered standards in other areas as
well. Lower eyesight, maybe I don't know. This allows a lot more

people
to fly in the US and all anyone who wants to fly abroad has to do is

get
a class 2, so it seems like a good idea to me.
I got the info from a friend of mine who's an examiner in Europe. I

put
it to him that it would be legal to fly a US reg airplane with a
standard private anywhere in the world, and he told me that while this
used to be the case, it is no longer..


In all honesty, I know a number of people who would really like to see
the exact regulatory reasoning with citations as to why a pilot with
an FAA pilot certificate and a valid 3rd class medical flying an N
registered aircraft isn't legal outside of the US any longer,



It's simple. ICAO have international agreements on what constitutes the
minimum standard that a pilot may operate in any of the member's
countrie's. The FAA have opted out of keeping the 3rd class to that
standard. ICAO haven't changed the rules, th eFAA have only elected to
lower the standards in order to allow a larger number of applicants into
the club and also to allow the certificate to last longer.


including the AME who just did my 2nd class medical last week who is
also a pilot and knows nothing about this subject we chatted
specifically about during the visit.

I'm not an expert on it, but I do have a furrin friend who is and I cut
and pasted exactly what he told me in my previous post. I looked at the
ICAO site, but I got bored wading throug the gobblydegook.


Bertie
  #6  
Old August 16th 08, 04:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Sylvain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 400
Default Third class abroad

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

countrie's. The FAA have opted out of keeping the 3rd class to that
standard. ICAO haven't changed the rules, th eFAA have only elected to
lower the standards in order to allow a larger number of applicants into
the club and also to allow the certificate to last longer.


Actually, the new duration of the FAA Class-III matches the new duration
of the JAR Class-II (which is just a fancy new name for their old Class-III,
they just removed their old Class-II); i.e., five years it is if you are
younger than 40. Actually, it used to be the case for some national
pre-JAR medical certificates (like the British CAA Class-III before it was
replaced by the JAR Class-II);

I am a bit surprised by your conclusion since I have both a JAR Class-II
(well, I have to renew the dang thing soon which means a trip to Canada,
the closest place with a British AME -- nope, JAR does not mean that
any JAR AME can do it surprisingly enough), and a FAA medical as
well (a Class-II, but then, the only difference with the Class-III
is that I have to do it more often, everything else being exactly
the same);

Note that this is a little pet peeve of mine, since I fly with a SODA,
and have paid particularly close attention to these issues over the
years; I did however met with my share of people who wanted to enforce
their own interpretation of the rules but that's a different story :-)

Well, I'll ask the question to my AMEs (both the FAA one --
since I have the renew this one as well soon -- and the JAR one), they
ought to know, and will report on this if you guys are interested.

--Sylvain
  #7  
Old August 16th 08, 05:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,969
Default Third class abroad

Sylvain wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

countrie's. The FAA have opted out of keeping the 3rd class to that
standard. ICAO haven't changed the rules, th eFAA have only elected
to lower the standards in order to allow a larger number of
applicants into the club and also to allow the certificate to last
longer.


Actually, the new duration of the FAA Class-III matches the new
duration of the JAR Class-II (which is just a fancy new name for their
old Class-III, they just removed their old Class-II); i.e., five
years it is if you are younger than 40. Actually, it used to be the
case for some national pre-JAR medical certificates (like the British
CAA Class-III before it was replaced by the JAR Class-II);


Ah, OK. Didn't know that. I have a JAR 1 and they're a year now.

I am a bit surprised by your conclusion since I have both a JAR
Class-II (well, I have to renew the dang thing soon which means a
trip to Canada, the closest place with a British AME -- nope, JAR
does not mean that any JAR AME can do it surprisingly enough), and a
FAA medical as well (a Class-II, but then, the only difference with
the Class-III is that I have to do it more often, everything else
being exactly the same);

Note that this is a little pet peeve of mine, since I fly with a
SODA, and have paid particularly close attention to these issues over
the years; I did however met with my share of people who wanted to
enforce their own interpretation of the rules but that's a different
story :-)

Well, I'll ask the question to my AMEs (both the FAA one --
since I have the renew this one as well soon -- and the JAR one),
they ought to know, and will report on this if you guys are
interested.


Well, it is something a lot of people are going to need to know about,
but how they're going to find out definitively, I have no idea. It
doesn't really matter to me since I have to have class ones no matter
what, but it's a bit surprising that the FAA hasn't made it clear..


Bertie
  #8  
Old August 17th 08, 12:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Mike[_22_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 466
Default Third class abroad

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
Peter Clark wrote in
:

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 09:16:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

Sylvain wrote in
news:dLqdnXWwn7dTyTvVnZ2dnUVZ_qTinZ2d@speakeasy .net:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Apparently, the FAA third is not valid abroad unless specifically
allowed by the coutry you're flying in.

Surprising. Any specifics? e.g., which country did not recognize
the FAA Class-III?

Almost all of them, I think.

in what circumstance? (I mean, flying a N-
registered aircraft or a locally registered aircraft)?

Both. your FAA licence is not valid anywhere outside the US without
express permission of the local authority.

who made the
call (local aviation authority official, or some busy body imposing
made up rules on the spot -- that I have seen happen a few times :-)
was it a class-III per se, or a Class-II or better that had expired
into a Class-III? (this one can cause confusion as well, even

though
it is spelled out on the piece of paper proper); was it an
unrestricted Class-III, or does it bear some kind of restriction?

The FAA are responsible for this. When they degraded the class three
below international standards. It was a tradeoff. I think it's mostly
the time thing, but I think they lowered standards in other areas as
well. Lower eyesight, maybe I don't know. This allows a lot more

people
to fly in the US and all anyone who wants to fly abroad has to do is

get
a class 2, so it seems like a good idea to me.
I got the info from a friend of mine who's an examiner in Europe. I

put
it to him that it would be legal to fly a US reg airplane with a
standard private anywhere in the world, and he told me that while this
used to be the case, it is no longer..


In all honesty, I know a number of people who would really like to see
the exact regulatory reasoning with citations as to why a pilot with
an FAA pilot certificate and a valid 3rd class medical flying an N
registered aircraft isn't legal outside of the US any longer,



It's simple. ICAO have international agreements on what constitutes the
minimum standard that a pilot may operate in any of the member's
countrie's. The FAA have opted out of keeping the 3rd class to that
standard. ICAO haven't changed the rules, th eFAA have only elected to
lower the standards in order to allow a larger number of applicants into
the club and also to allow the certificate to last longer.


In fact, the reverse is true. The FAA opted in to bringing their medical
duration lengths to the ICAO standard.

ICAO changed the medical duration standards in 2005, and the FAA rule change
in June of this year mirrored those standards. In fact, in part of the
reasoning behind the FAA's rule change they cited the ICAO standards and
noted there had been no adverse impact to safety by the member states that
adopted those standards.

I'm not sure what you mean my "international agreements". ICAO writes the
standards, and member states may or may not follow them. The recent trend
among most countries, including the US, is to align themselves to ICAO
standards.

  #9  
Old August 17th 08, 05:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Robert M. Gary
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,767
Default Third class abroad

On Aug 15, 4:43*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Apparently, the FAA third is not valid abroad unless specifically allowed
by the coutry you're flying in.

An FAA Class 3 Medical is not issued in accordance with ICAO specifically
because the US filed differences with Annex 3. Therefore the medical is
only valid within the confines of the United States.

Doesn't matter what the reg if the airplane is, either..


I guess it depends on the country. ICAO only recognizes class 3
medicals for certain ATC controllers. Private Pilots are requird to
have at least a class 2. Not sure what countries require the strict
ICAO medical requirements though.

-Robert

  #10  
Old August 17th 08, 01:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,969
Default Third class abroad

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
:

On Aug 15, 4:43*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Apparently, the FAA third is not valid abroad unless specifically
allowed by the coutry you're flying in.

An FAA Class 3 Medical is not issued in accordance with ICAO
specifically because the US filed differences with Annex 3. Therefore
the medical is only valid within the confines of the United States.

Doesn't matter what the reg if the airplane is, either..


I guess it depends on the country. ICAO only recognizes class 3
medicals for certain ATC controllers. Private Pilots are requird to
have at least a class 2. Not sure what countries require the strict
ICAO medical requirements though.


Dunno. I'm far from expert on this. I was only repeating what I'd been
told. I'll have to ask this guy for some more details when I talk to him
next. He was talking about flying in JAR land, BTW. Don't know if that
makes any difference, but I'll find out.
I wouldn't be surprised if Canada, for instance, still accepted the FAA 3rd
.. Seems like it's something that will have to be checked out before you
went aviating outside the US though.
 




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