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#11
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Buying a 1-35 pros and cons?
On Saturday, March 23, 2013 10:01:14 PM UTC-4, Dave Springford wrote:
No offense, but this is a semi hot button issue. Flap transition guys need the best advice they can get. Not from guys with one flight. Wow - I guess you don't know me! We've met. You seemed to know what you were doing, and then some. But I'll call baloney on bad landing flap advice from *anyone* just because I had to deal with so damned much of it when I was trying to come to terms with my old HP. If you had even 30 good flap only (Schleicher don't count) landings, you would not have given the advise you gave above. regards, Evan / T8 |
#12
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Buying a 1-35 pros and cons?
Tim,
Check out this website dedicated to the 1-35, and with contributions from happy owners. My total glider time was only 35 hours when I bought mine. Granted, my power-plane rating was helpful, but flaps are no mystery following training. And if short landings are your thing, this glider does that well. Raul Boerner http://members.goldengate.net/~tmren.../sgs135new.htm |
#13
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Buying a 1-35 pros and cons?
On Saturday, March 23, 2013 4:13:28 PM UTC-4, Tim Weston wrote:
Does anyone have any inside info on the pros / cons of buying a 1-35. I am interested in learning cross country. I am mostly looking to hear from any current or former 1-35 owners. Thanks, Tim W The thing that's sort of jumbled around in this discussion but deserves to be explicitly stated: the transition to flaps only does need to be addressed head on, and results that come out are largely dependent upon the quality of the inputs, including you, your instructor, your pre-transition study, the glider, the airport environment. the hardest thing to find for most guys is a CFIG with a hundred full flap landings. Lacking a flap qualified CFIG, things get rather more luck dependent than we like to see in aviation. Often the whole thing goes great, sometimes it goes very badly (1st flight, PIK 20B. This gentleman over shot whole airport, pulled up, tried to make a 180, spun, saved by trees). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks2TM2VOmaw Gives a whole new meaning to "see and avoid", doesn't it? The normal expectation (with "good inputs") is passable airport landings immediately, precision landings with some practice, expert low energy landings with a lot of practice. Evan Ludeman / T8 |
#14
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Buying a 1-35 pros and cons?
I have never flown a 1-35, but I am sure you could get a better first
glider. It all depends on your aspirations. Somebody else gave the advice of a Libelle / Standard Cirrus or Discus. All really good gliders and competitive in the Club Class as well. Don't worry about the transition to flaps, its quite simple really. Push forward to go faster and pull back to slow down and thermal. Pull back a little further to land. When you fly a flapped glider for the first time, get a good briefing from somebody who will no over complicate matters! At 20:13 23 March 2013, wrote: Does anyone have any inside info on the pros / cons of buying a 1-35. I am interested in learning cross country. I am mostly looking to hear from any current or former 1-35 owners. Thanks, Tim W |
#15
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Buying a 1-35 pros and cons?
On Sunday, March 24, 2013 11:02:04 AM UTC-4, Justin Craig wrote:
I have never flown a 1-35 How many flights have you had with a flaps-only glider? (I'm not interested in your experience with a flaps + spoilers glider.) |
#16
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Buying a 1-35 pros and cons?
I gotta laugh at the "head of a pin" analogy. Years back I swapped my LS-6a
with a friend for his ASW-20 (B, I think - it had the stiff wings). He described the '6 by placing his hand, palm down, on a raised indes finger (head of a pin). I thought the '20 was horribly stiff on the ailerons. So, I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder... BTW, I enjoyed flying the 1-35 before buying my first ship - a Mosquito. "Bob Whelan" wrote in message ... On 3/23/2013 5:44 PM, Dave Springford wrote: I completely agree with the comment about a flap-only glider and would advise against a 1-35 as a first glider unless you have lots of flap-only power time. No problem with that advice (even though I do not agree with it, reasons - or at least examples - why I disagree noted in another post in this same thread)... The problem is that flaps are digital, they are either on or off, unlike the analogue nature of spoilers where you can vary their position as required. With flaps, once they are on you are pretty much committed to that glide path until touch down. Um - no offense intended, Dave - but this is utter nonsense. In my - hydraulically-actuated, more or less "single-shot" flapped HP-14, I flew every approach (but two) always adding flaps...but that was only because the flap actuation system didn't lend itself to modulation, and, it had so much drag there was no NEED to ever modulate/decrease added drag...it had roughly a somewhere between 2:1 to 4:1 glide angle with full flaps, near as I bothered to quantify. In my - relatively weenily flapped w. consequently considerably shallower approach cone (7:1 it's doing good) - Zuni with a "1-35C-like flap actuation system," approaches (particularly in vertically gnarly conditions) were regularly flown with flap modulation, sometimes from full on to full off. It's no big deal, though doing so does require matching (not particularly difficult...dare I say intuitive?) pitch inputs to maintain a consistent speed. And of course, all our approaches are flown at a consistent speed, eh? Now, roundout time I'd agree is no time to be messing with flaps...just as it's no time to be messing with spoilers, except maybe for the relatively more experienced in type pilot, possibly practicing something or other... The other issue with the 1-35, (based on my one flight in one) is that I found it about the most unstable glider I had ever flown. With most gliders you can take your hand of the stick and it keeps going straight. The 1-35 I flew instantly departed stable flight when I let go of the stick. After landing, I described as a glider balanced on the head of a pin. I've never flown one, but 1st-generation Standard Cirri have been similarly 'head of a pin' described to me by several active-in-them pilots when we've compared notes, as has (e.g.) the 1-36 'Sprite'. I think my 1st-high-performance-ship, 1-35C-owning brother would generally concur with your 'head of a pin' assessment (I seem to recall he used that very expression in a letter to me, in fact), though he personally ultimately found it to be an asset, particularly on weak, rattily thermalled days, since the ship 'talked to him' so much. Get an LS4 or Discus, or even a Standard Cirrus, or if you are small enough, a Libelle as your first ship. Ruh roh. There's that pesky St'd Cirrus again! See above comment... - - - - - - To the OP, the above exchange beautifully illustrates the unavoidable perplexities to be found in free advice! Bob - believes some free advice is better than others - W. |
#17
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Buying a 1-35 pros and cons?
Tim, the 1-35 is a fine glider. As with any transition to flaps-only,
the 1-35 requires careful training with an **appropriately qualified** instructor; do that and you will have absolutely no problems. Enjoy it ! Best Regards, Dave (who has flown 1-35, C-70, HP-14, Monerai, etc, and currently owns an RHJ-8 in addition to an Antares 20E). |
#18
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Buying a 1-35 pros and cons?
On 3/23/2013 11:43 PM, Wayne Paul wrote:
Tim, This thread brings back a lot of memories of the advice I was given when I purchased my first Schreder sailplane, most of which was erroneous. I only had about 10 hours in a Ka-6E prior to purchasing an HP-16. Snip BTW, the HP-14 has the most powerful flaps of all the flap-only gliders. Bob, do you really think a '14 with the flaps set at 90 degrees would float in ground effect the length of a 4,000 ft runway? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXwy7dsLndM Wayne Moderator Yahoo hp-gliders news group Webmaster Schreder Sailplane Designs website My observational/PIC experience matches Wayne's claim above...i.e. I've never encountered a flaps-only glider with more powerful flaps than an HP-14. As noted elsewhere, my PIC experience includes C-70, HP-14 (short span, long-flap version), & Zuni. My observational experience adds 1-35 (retract & Club), PIK-20A/B, HP-16, HP-18, AS W-20 (all have spoilers, but I'm referring to the large flap-deflection versions here), Monerai and possibly a few more I'm forgetting. As to the question, "[D]o you really think a '14 with the flaps set at 90 degrees would float in ground effect the length of a 4,000 ft runway?" my short form answer is, "Yes." Reason? The "float tendency" is "excess speed dependent." Every flapped ship I've seen and flown has exhibited similar behavior in ground effect with full flaps...a *marked* decrease in apparent drag and increase in "floating tendency." The more "safety speed" Joe Pilot brings close to the ground, the (rapidly) worsening the tendency to float. I've no idea how much "excess safety speed" an HP-14 might need before it floated off the end of the runway compared to (say) a 1-35, and it would certainly be more than required by a 1-35, but my takeaway point for folks considering transitioning to large-deflection flaps-only ships is "excess safety speed" carried through the roundout, likely won't be increasing their immediate future's safety. Like practicing inadvertent departures from controlled flight in the landing pattern, my recommendation for carrying "excess safety speed for Mom and the kids" in these ships, is; "Kids, don't do it." That said, if anyone DOES find themselves floating undesiredly and rapidly toward the far end of the runway in full-flapped ground effect, I'd next recommend they simply begin reducing the flap setting as rapidly and "pitch steadily" as possible, because their 3 remaining reasonably safe options are now: 1) float with full flaps until the end of the runway or touchdown, whichever arrives first; 2) reduce flaps/settle/touchdown/brake as heavily as possible/groundloop if necessary; or 3) initiate the groundloop while still aloft (Yech!). My recommendation is option 2, based on the float lengths I've seen (always by other pilots) vs. the effectiveness of "typical glider wheel brakes." Stated another way, if conditions require "excess safety speed" (and any transition-to-a-new-ship day, shouldn't), I'm a believer in getting rid of the excess speed where it's safest to do so (duh! ;-)), which - IMO - in a flaps-only ship is (for discussional purposes) in the "final 15 or so vertical feet (and not the final vertical 3 feet). I never botched things so badly I "dropped in" from a personal "fright height" either the C-70 (PIK-20-like flaps) or HP-14. In both ships, even a botched (too rapid) roundout with full flaps resulted in sufficient downwash from the flaps that - when I simply halted my aft-stick movement the instant I recognized a "serious balloon" - the ships ultimately settled to earth relatively gently. My guess is my worst such "drop in" may've been from 2 feet or so, but I don't know. I know it SEEMED much higher, but I never had anyone from the peanut gallery tell me afterwards they thought I was going to bust the ship or my back. The Zuni I did (twice? thrice?) "full-flap drop in" from sufficient height I was worried for the ship...because - due to its relatively weenier flaps, drag and downwash - it ballooned higher more rapidly before I caught it, and once at the top of the arc, there's nothing one can do but (if sufficiently bold) continue increasing aft force until critical AoA is reached, or, simply wait (and count on downwash to cushion things...this is what I generally did). Reducing AoA with forward stick "trying to maintain (reducing) speed" isn't desirable. (Ask me how I know.) - - - - - - For anyone reading this while in a position of considering transitioning to a large-deflection landing-flap-only ship, understand I'm touching upon something that is completely - and entirely safely - avoidable simply by not carrying "excess safety speed" in such ships. My experience - both PIC and as a member of the peanut gallery - has been that none of the nuance expressed above will be "necessary" if Joe Glider Pilot simply flies his approaches in such ships using the usual "generally accepted by competent and knowledgeable instructors" rules of thumb for choosing (in the absence of manufacturer recommendations) an approach speed sensible to that needed to transition to any new-to-him spoilered ship. In broad brush terms, arguably the WORST thing a wannabe large-deflection landing-flap-only transitionee can do - IMHO - is buy into "the intimidation factor" so prevalent in the free advice world. Why? Because much of the advice therefrom is not only confusing, contradictory and unnecessary, but actively harmful. Coupla examples spring immediately to mind (in no particular order)... 1) Big Intimidating Pitch Changes Required!!! 2) Not Enough Energy to Round-Out!!! 3) In Speed Lies Safety!!! 4) Reduce Flap Setting at the Risk of your Life!!! 5) Difficult to Judge Glide Path (because of pitch changes)!!! I'm probably overlooking some others, but just to quickly attempt to provide a measure of sensible counterpoint to the above canards... 1)Better not fly a Schweizer 1-34 or 2-32, then... 2) Utter rubbish. (I used to regularly fly "back of the polar curve" approaches in my HP-14 in calm [e.g. late evening] conditions, and not once felt I was marginal on roundout energy. In fact, the slower the approach, the more time-available/easier-it-was to assess precisely when the final roundout should begin.) 3) Discussed above. 4) Nonsense. Pitch falls out in the wash of airspeed control, regardless of the ship being flown. (As noted elsewhere in this thread, vertically gnarly pattern conditions in the weenily-flapped Zuni regularly occasioned the need for this technique. In the [far more draggy HP-14] I once dumped full - hydraulically actuated, "instantaneously"-dumping-by-air-pressure, flaps at ~300'agl on short final during a thunderstorm approach because I WAS going to overshoot due to "cloud suck", and did a go-around. In my judgment the risk associated with the overshoot (deep ravine on the west side of the old Black Forest E-W strip) exceeded the risk associated with dumping the flaps, and the low-starting-altitude go-around. By far the greater risk in the option I chose was the go-around bit, not the flap-position-change bit, but at least a failed go-around would have me contacting level prairie instead of a tree-studded ravine. For the record, I never should have placed myself or the ship in that day's position...) 5) More nonsense. (The steeper the approach, the easier judging one's roundout point becomes. The time delay establishing the new, speed-stabilized pitch/flight-path change coincident with your new flap position was probably no more than 2 seconds in the HP-14 [whose flaps came down ~20-degrees per pump of the hydraulic handle], and with each pitch down, the roundout point became more easily identified..not that it ever was difficult.) RAS is (probably) a lousy place to discuss stuff like this, but being someone more inclined toward accuracy than toward "good hangar tale hyperbole/inaccuracy," I occasionally feel the need to attempt to limit the spread of less than informative, and sometimes outright unhelpful, contentions. I'll go take my meds, now... Bob W. |
#19
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Buying a 1-35 pros and cons?
On 3/24/2013 7:03 AM, Evan Ludeman wrote:
On Saturday, March 23, 2013 4:13:28 PM UTC-4, Tim Weston wrote: Does anyone have any inside info on the pros / cons of buying a 1-35. I am interested in learning cross country. I am mostly looking to hear from any current or former 1-35 owners. Thanks, Tim W The thing that's sort of jumbled around in this discussion but deserves to be explicitly stated: the transition to flaps only does need to be addressed head on, and results that come out are largely dependent upon the quality of the inputs, including you, your instructor, your pre-transition study, the glider, the airport environment. the hardest thing to find for most guys is a CFIG with a hundred full flap landings. Lacking a flap qualified CFIG, things get rather more luck dependent than we like to see in aviation. Often the whole thing goes great, sometimes it goes very badly (1st flight, PIK 20B. This gentleman over shot whole airport, pulled up, tried to make a 180, spun, saved by trees). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks2TM2VOmaw Gives a whole new meaning to "see and avoid", doesn't it? The normal expectation (with "good inputs") is passable airport landings immediately, precision landings with some practice, expert low energy landings with a lot of practice. Evan Ludeman / T8 "What Evan said." - - - - - - At the risk of thread drift...regarding "expert low energy landings with a lot of practice" my experience has been that "expert low energylandings" came a lot more easily the"flap draggier" the glider. HP-14: "expert low energy landings with [a lot of] practice" might accurately be written, "expert low energy landings with [some more] practice." Zuni: "What Evan wrote." Nuance, sure. I take it as more evidence, "You can't have too much disposable drag" when it comes to ease and safety of landing a glider. Straw poll question: What's more likely to result in a crunch - full spoiler practice or no spoiler practice? Why? Bob W. |
#20
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Buying a 1-35 pros and cons?
Tim, a 1-35 (serial no. 33) was my first glider in 2004. I transitioned into it with 25 hours PIC time, mostly in the club 1-34. I flew 230 hours in it and did Silver and Gold badges. My instructor, UH, was expert with flaps-only ships, and made the switch from dive brakes to flaps quite simple for me. My first landings were not stylish but none were unsafe, and they improved rapidly. With proper energy control, the 1-35 can make a very steep approach (useful for getting into a small field over tall trees). Visibility with the nose pitched downward on final approach is terrific. Stall speed with full flaps is 37 knots, IIRC. I never had any trouble at all with the two-stage flap handle -- it's simply a process you internalize.
I thought it was a great first ship and great for beginning XC flying. The stout aluminum construction was reassuring and I felt the cockpit was sturdier than a comparably priced first generation fiberglass glider -- important to me as a beginner as I expected to screw-up occassionally. I liked the fact that it has a nose skid -- if I landed long and was in danger of hitting the fence, I had the option of pushing it over onto the skid to aid in stopping, which I did on at least one of many off-field landings. I usually assembled Saturday morning and kept it tied out overnight, putting it back in the trailer Sunday evening for the week. If I still had it I would probably keep it tied out all season now, with a set of covers on it. There were many things I loved about it -- little things, like the clever design of the locking mechanism for the demountable horizontal stabilizers, which provided triple redundancy. I loved the flaps for really slow thermalling. The wings "oil can" in strong lift, making a distinctive sound, which I came to enjoy as the sound of being rapidly hoisted aloft. In my first and (so far) only regional contest, I had the only aluminum glider in the field, and people kept referring to it as "that thing," as in "I like how you fly that thing." There is something to be said for flying an "everyday Joe" kind of glider that doesn't raise expectations too high.... My least favorite thing was the relatively high control forces needed on the stick -- the result of cable actuated ailerons, rather than pushrods. If you can, get the earlier iteration with retractable gear. I was only interested in one that had the forward hinged canopy modification done. With the canopy carefully sealed, it was very quiet. As many people will say, buy the best trailer you can find -- I actually traded up from the lovingly built but slowly deteriorating enclosed wooden trailer it came with, to a nice aluminum tube type, and that made a big difference. I heartily recommend the 1-35. The handicap and performance is about on par with other gliders in the same price range or costing a little more. They seem to be quite desirable for some -- I sold mine in a week. You will feel comfortable landing it in a pasture, knowing it's strong. I think I might still be flying it except that I opted to get a self-launcher, for the freedom it gives me to fly when and where I want. My current TeST 10M has almost the same performance as the 1-35 -- if Schweizer had built a 1-35 self-launcher, I would probably be flying that.... Go for it and enjoy -- happy full-flap low-energy landings! |
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