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Private airport or small field for landout?



 
 
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  #41  
Old May 28th 20, 11:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Default Private airport or small field for landout?

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 10:24:25 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 5/28/2020 5:40 AM:
On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 7:44:14 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
"Land in the dirt, you won't get hurt" has, so far, worked well for me..

Farmers don't get worked up about crop damage when it's not even an inch high.

With private strips, width can be a deal/glider breaker. I passed up one in the book because the stated width looked a tight squeeze. And I once saw the green (corn) stains on the tips of an 18m self launcher. The owner had the look of a narrow escape on him. The private strips I have used were known to my local club as wide enough for gliders. The owners have been hospitable and happy to talk airplanes. There's the rare one that won't allow aerotow retrieve because of liability considerations.

You can compare the width to power pole spacing.

No matter how hard you study the local fields and airports, the day will likely come when you have to evaluate fields from the air. It's been recommended for aspiring XC pilots to evaluate possible fields from the air and drive over for a look.


I fly in the mountains of the west. Very few fields where I fly, but where I grew up in Idaho, I would not want to land those lowed fields. I used to work pea harvest and there would be dirt clods, hard dirt clods that could take your landing gear out and break your back. So "land in the dirt and you won't get hurt" is again, a guideline, not a rule. Lots of plowed fields are well plowed many are not.

"You don't get hurt in the dirt" is best applied in eastern Washington State,
where the dirt is more like face powder and sand, and plowing doesn't produce the
kinds of clumps/clods you see in Kansas and other places with "real" dirt and lots
more moisture. It's also a pretty good mantra in much of Idaho and eastern Oregon.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


No, I think applies virtually anywhere. A plowed field will be free of any large rocks (they damage farm equipment), is fairly uniform for proper irrigation, won't have deep drainage ditches, barbed wire fences, chunks of discarded metal, bushes, irrigation pipes, etc. Next on the list is a field with a low crop and dirt is visible between the crop rows. A much worse option is a pasture where all of the above is a possibility if not a likelihood.

I once landed on what turned out to be an abandoned air stip south of Air Sailing in an ASW19. While in the pattern I could see that the air strip was narrow with high berms on both sides. I didn't think my wings would clear the berms so I landed on one of the berms (which turned out to be the case).. It worked out ok, but it was an eye-opener on how deceiving these strips are at altitude.

Tom
  #42  
Old May 29th 20, 12:36 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,463
Default Private airport or small field for landout?

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 3:28:55 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 10:24:25 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 5/28/2020 5:40 AM:
On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 7:44:14 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
"Land in the dirt, you won't get hurt" has, so far, worked well for me.

Farmers don't get worked up about crop damage when it's not even an inch high.

With private strips, width can be a deal/glider breaker. I passed up one in the book because the stated width looked a tight squeeze. And I once saw the green (corn) stains on the tips of an 18m self launcher. The owner had the look of a narrow escape on him. The private strips I have used were known to my local club as wide enough for gliders. The owners have been hospitable and happy to talk airplanes. There's the rare one that won't allow aerotow retrieve because of liability considerations.

You can compare the width to power pole spacing.

No matter how hard you study the local fields and airports, the day will likely come when you have to evaluate fields from the air. It's been recommended for aspiring XC pilots to evaluate possible fields from the air and drive over for a look.

I fly in the mountains of the west. Very few fields where I fly, but where I grew up in Idaho, I would not want to land those lowed fields. I used to work pea harvest and there would be dirt clods, hard dirt clods that could take your landing gear out and break your back. So "land in the dirt and you won't get hurt" is again, a guideline, not a rule. Lots of plowed fields are well plowed many are not.

"You don't get hurt in the dirt" is best applied in eastern Washington State,
where the dirt is more like face powder and sand, and plowing doesn't produce the
kinds of clumps/clods you see in Kansas and other places with "real" dirt and lots
more moisture. It's also a pretty good mantra in much of Idaho and eastern Oregon.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


No, I think applies virtually anywhere. A plowed field will be free of any large rocks (they damage farm equipment), is fairly uniform for proper irrigation, won't have deep drainage ditches, barbed wire fences, chunks of discarded metal, bushes, irrigation pipes, etc. Next on the list is a field with a low crop and dirt is visible between the crop rows. A much worse option is a pasture where all of the above is a possibility if not a likelihood.

I once landed on what turned out to be an abandoned air stip south of Air Sailing in an ASW19. While in the pattern I could see that the air strip was narrow with high berms on both sides. I didn't think my wings would clear the berms so I landed on one of the berms (which turned out to be the case). It worked out ok, but it was an eye-opener on how deceiving these strips are at altitude.

Tom


Any real world data? How many of you have broken a glider in a plowed field? They can be very inviting and many are very good landing sites, but know your area. I have both seen and worked in plowed fields that I would not attempt to land in. And I have seen some beautiful fields.
  #43  
Old May 29th 20, 01:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Private airport or small field for landout?

Out here in the west (read "stinkin' desert") many "plowed fields" are crop circles, and while the sprinkler system is a hazard, at least it is visible. What will get your attention are the deep circular ruts left by said sprinkler system. That and the (often) circular furrows, although many farmers ("Agrarians," as Pez D. Spencer calls them) plow in parallel lines and let the sprinkler deal with making its own path. What can be annoying, if not downright dangerous, is having to land with the furrows, as opposed to at an angle, no matter what the crosswind component may be. Some crops need very deep furrows, and landing across the pattern is going to be extremely rough and potentially dangerous.

So far, in 20 years of sailplane XC and over 1,200 flights, I have "landed out" less than 10 times, and all but one were on a runway. Some were dirt, but they were all "real" runways. The only one that wasn't USED to be a runway, but it had degraded into just a rough dirt line in the weeds.
  #44  
Old May 29th 20, 02:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default Private airport or small field for landout?

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 4:36:25 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 3:28:55 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 10:24:25 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 5/28/2020 5:40 AM:
On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 7:44:14 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
"Land in the dirt, you won't get hurt" has, so far, worked well for me.

Farmers don't get worked up about crop damage when it's not even an inch high.

With private strips, width can be a deal/glider breaker. I passed up one in the book because the stated width looked a tight squeeze. And I once saw the green (corn) stains on the tips of an 18m self launcher. The owner had the look of a narrow escape on him. The private strips I have used were known to my local club as wide enough for gliders. The owners have been hospitable and happy to talk airplanes. There's the rare one that won't allow aerotow retrieve because of liability considerations.

You can compare the width to power pole spacing.

No matter how hard you study the local fields and airports, the day will likely come when you have to evaluate fields from the air. It's been recommended for aspiring XC pilots to evaluate possible fields from the air and drive over for a look.

I fly in the mountains of the west. Very few fields where I fly, but where I grew up in Idaho, I would not want to land those lowed fields. I used to work pea harvest and there would be dirt clods, hard dirt clods that could take your landing gear out and break your back. So "land in the dirt and you won't get hurt" is again, a guideline, not a rule. Lots of plowed fields are well plowed many are not.

"You don't get hurt in the dirt" is best applied in eastern Washington State,
where the dirt is more like face powder and sand, and plowing doesn't produce the
kinds of clumps/clods you see in Kansas and other places with "real" dirt and lots
more moisture. It's also a pretty good mantra in much of Idaho and eastern Oregon.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


No, I think applies virtually anywhere. A plowed field will be free of any large rocks (they damage farm equipment), is fairly uniform for proper irrigation, won't have deep drainage ditches, barbed wire fences, chunks of discarded metal, bushes, irrigation pipes, etc. Next on the list is a field with a low crop and dirt is visible between the crop rows. A much worse option is a pasture where all of the above is a possibility if not a likelihood.

I once landed on what turned out to be an abandoned air stip south of Air Sailing in an ASW19. While in the pattern I could see that the air strip was narrow with high berms on both sides. I didn't think my wings would clear the berms so I landed on one of the berms (which turned out to be the case). It worked out ok, but it was an eye-opener on how deceiving these strips are at altitude.

Tom


Any real world data? How many of you have broken a glider in a plowed field? They can be very inviting and many are very good landing sites, but know your area. I have both seen and worked in plowed fields that I would not attempt to land in. And I have seen some beautiful fields.


Yes, it's called the NTSB. Broken gliders end up in their database. Another possibility are contest reports, where landouts are common. If a competitor withdraws after a landout it is pretty likely that he/she damaged the glider.

Tom
  #45  
Old May 29th 20, 02:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 281
Default Private airport or small field for landout?

airport or small field? depends...

Scary question if it means you arrive at an unknown site without enough energy to provide some time to inspect and think through a landing.

If you don't have a known site/plan pre-chosen, how to land depends on which looks like a better plan when you get there. How big, how rough, slope, doable approach, how get a trailer to it. As a bonus, can I get a tow out of there. Double bonus if there is beer and BBQ on the ground. That needs some time to sort out.

Knock on wood, so far I've been able to get to each outlanding with enough energy to circle to inspect and if I can circle with zero sink, maybe extra inspect, move landing plan, or climb out.

I don't think this is so much a matter of luck as being willing to sometimes divert sideways or backwards from task early when low to get to a place more likely to work out.

Once this meant choosing between three equal fields. One with a locked gate, one with cows and one freshly harvested with empty rows pointing to a nice open gate. Retrieve was about 50 feet.

Once this meant zero sink circling/inspecting over a beautifully groomed site next to a road. A second circle showed it to be a horse farm behind locked gates with a equally good place outside the gates which became the new best place and a source of enough lift to finish the day's task.

I'm not sure if airport or field is answerable. Instead of asking, try to get there with enough energy to provide the time to choose.
  #46  
Old May 29th 20, 03:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael Opitz
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Posts: 318
Default Private airport or small field for landout?

At 23:36 28 May 2020, Jonathan St. Cloud

Any real world data? How many of you have broken a glider in a

plowed field? They can be very inviting and many are very good
landing sites, but know your area. I have both seen and worked in
plowed fields that I would not attempt to land in. And I have seen
some beautiful fields.

Jon, that is exactly the point - Real World - The real world is very
different in different places. We had a ton of broken gliders from
landing in plowed fields during the 1985 WGC in Italy. Over there
the soil is clay, and that summer was dry. The clay was so
compacted that the farmers used bulldozers to pull the plows
because the tractors weren't strong enough. The furrows were
sometimes a foot to 1.5 feet deep, and the clods that were tilled up
were large and like boulders. During practice, I landed in one that
had only 6" furrows, but was hard as brick. The jarring caused the
gear handle on my Discus-b to come out of the down detent, and
the gear collapsed, so I wound up sliding on my belly for a short
ways. Klaus Holighaus spent most of the night fixing the small
belly hole himself, and I flew the rest of the contest with a ~1ft
green spot on the belly. Dick Brandt made me a hard rubber wedge
to place in the gear handle track after the gear was lowered in order
to keep the gear handle from popping out again. Our coach, Walter
Neubert, had loaned his brand new ASW-20 to Henri Stouffs of
Belgium. Hernri absolutely totaled it out landing in a plowed field
with deeper furrows and bigger clods. The damage list went on and
on. The bottom line is that not all plowed fields are alike or
landable. It all depends on the the local area, the kind of soil, the
moisture content, the farming methods, the wx, etc. To try and
give someone universal advice that all plowed fields are good off
field landing options is just being way too short sighted for me.
You have to know the local agriculture at the time of year that you
are flying, and then qualify the off field landing options.

RO


  #47  
Old May 29th 20, 04:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,463
Default Private airport or small field for landout?

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 8:00:03 PM UTC-7, Michael Opitz wrote:
At 23:36 28 May 2020, Jonathan St. Cloud

Any real world data? How many of you have broken a glider in a

plowed field? They can be very inviting and many are very good
landing sites, but know your area. I have both seen and worked in
plowed fields that I would not attempt to land in. And I have seen
some beautiful fields.

Jon, that is exactly the point - Real World - The real world is very
different in different places. We had a ton of broken gliders from
landing in plowed fields during the 1985 WGC in Italy. Over there
the soil is clay, and that summer was dry. The clay was so
compacted that the farmers used bulldozers to pull the plows
because the tractors weren't strong enough. The furrows were
sometimes a foot to 1.5 feet deep, and the clods that were tilled up
were large and like boulders. During practice, I landed in one that
had only 6" furrows, but was hard as brick. The jarring caused the
gear handle on my Discus-b to come out of the down detent, and
the gear collapsed, so I wound up sliding on my belly for a short
ways. Klaus Holighaus spent most of the night fixing the small
belly hole himself, and I flew the rest of the contest with a ~1ft
green spot on the belly. Dick Brandt made me a hard rubber wedge
to place in the gear handle track after the gear was lowered in order
to keep the gear handle from popping out again. Our coach, Walter
Neubert, had loaned his brand new ASW-20 to Henri Stouffs of
Belgium. Hernri absolutely totaled it out landing in a plowed field
with deeper furrows and bigger clods. The damage list went on and
on. The bottom line is that not all plowed fields are alike or
landable. It all depends on the the local area, the kind of soil, the
moisture content, the farming methods, the wx, etc. To try and
give someone universal advice that all plowed fields are good off
field landing options is just being way too short sighted for me.
You have to know the local agriculture at the time of year that you
are flying, and then qualify the off field landing options.

RO


Well then I think that about settles it, as I posted 14 hours ago: "So "land in the dirt and you won't get hurt" is again, a guideline, not a rule." Lots of plowed fields are well plowed many are not. "
  #48  
Old May 29th 20, 12:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 281
Default Private airport or small field for landout?


You have to know the local agriculture at the time of year that you
are flying, and then qualify the off field landing options.


A farmer's field could mean sod, hay, cultivated crop, livestock, plant nursery, orchard, tree farm, and lots of other stuff. Each type of crop has a different set of steps for farming. Depending on what the farmer and mother nature have been up to recently, it might be landable or to be avoided.

Choosing requires time for a careful look and some sense of what farmers do in your area in the current season. No fixed rules, but the above list is somewhat ordered from most to least likely landable. Most try to avoid getting to a situation where they have to land with 'the cows' and below on the list.

A known airport might be first on the list, but an unknown one might be a ways down, especially if it hasn't been used in a while.
  #49  
Old May 29th 20, 08:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Hal 1L
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Posts: 1
Default Private airport or small field for landout?

Many folks who have their own landing strip will, if asked, not give you permission to land there. This is to protect themselves from legal liability.. The question to ask is something like "If a glider gets low and must land on your field, would you as the field owner cause a problem for the pilot?" Most private landing strip owners are helpful and friendly to glider pilots who land there, even if their field is listed as restricted or private..

On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 5:35:28 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
Hi all.

I'm a former cfi-i/mei and commercial glider pilot, but I've never gone cross-country in my PW-5 glider. Training up for it though. A question:

If you are in an area where the fields are small, but there are several private airfields around, which should be your priority?

Seems to me that the private airport would be safer, assuming you have enough altitude to overfly it. Also I notice that my (new) Oudie2 shows all the private airstrips around as potential landout spots.

Will you get in trouble (legal or financial) if you have to landout at a private airport (assuming you aren't declaring an emergency, of course)?

Ben


  #50  
Old May 29th 20, 09:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,463
Default Private airport or small field for landout?

On Friday, May 29, 2020 at 12:46:15 PM UTC-7, Hal 1L wrote:
Many folks who have their own landing strip will, if asked, not give you permission to land there. This is to protect themselves from legal liability. The question to ask is something like "If a glider gets low and must land on your field, would you as the field owner cause a problem for the pilot?" Most private landing strip owners are helpful and friendly to glider pilots who land there, even if their field is listed as restricted or private.

On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 5:35:28 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
Hi all.

I'm a former cfi-i/mei and commercial glider pilot, but I've never gone cross-country in my PW-5 glider. Training up for it though. A question:

If you are in an area where the fields are small, but there are several private airfields around, which should be your priority?

Seems to me that the private airport would be safer, assuming you have enough altitude to overfly it. Also I notice that my (new) Oudie2 shows all the private airstrips around as potential landout spots.

Will you get in trouble (legal or financial) if you have to landout at a private airport (assuming you aren't declaring an emergency, of course)?

Ben


Not all private strips are friendly as anyone that has landed at Pala airport in Southern CA can attest. I landed a helicopter there once to check a chip light, holly hell, you would have thought a black man landed there. Security car, with lights flashing, siren wailing came scratching to a halt, too close for comfort. They demanded to know why I was there, how soon I could leave and why I flew a non-standard pattern. I calmly explained that: a) I was there because of a chip light; b) I would be gone as soon as I checked the chip light and verified it was safe to fly; and c) helicopters are supposed to avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic. I checked the chip detector, while another security guard came over to make me more uncomfortable. He loudly proclaimed "Those Goddamn Marine helicopters land here occasionally and we just hate that." I responded "so, did you just want them to die?" As I was getting back in the bird and going through the start up, yet another car with flashing lights comes up and said "wait here the president is coming", I responded "the president of the United States?", "no the president of the resort". That ****ed me off! I said, "great, if he is here in the next two minutes and can speak over the downwash." As I lifted off I could see yet another two security cars with full lights, running down the length of the runway to reach me. I assumed those cars contained rtes president and entourage. That seemed like a good direction to get my speed up in ground effect at about three feet AGL. Filed a NASA report, and put a black x by that airport in my mind. I have never experienced so much hate towards an aviator who just needed a place to check a problem. Never heard from them again but always made sure to do a non-standard approach and simulated touchdown every time I was in the hood. I was hoping to de-sensitize them to foreign aircraft and as a younger man, I behaved differently than now.
 




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