French planes are crap

"Matt" wrote in message ...
Just the standard 'blah blah America superior to the rest of the world in
absolutely every respect blah blah" Al post.

The Rafale is a nice aircraft, and excellent value when you take it's weapon
systems - MICA, SCALP-EG, etc - into account. The Republic of Korea's Air
Force wanted the Rafale with uprated engines, but since the US offered the
F-15K with economic offsets that actually outweigh the price of the contract
(i..e. they essentially payed the Koreans to take it), they went for that
instead. Suprise!

The F-15K is a very nice aircraft, but the base airframe is getting on in
years.

Matt

"robert arndt" wrote in message
m...
Alan Minyard wrote in message
. ..
On 2 Nov 2003 02:39:53 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

(Tom R. Rastell) wrote in message
. com...
because the French are frogs and frogs can´t fly!


Oh really? Then please explain why Americans were flying French a/c in
WW1. Ever heard of the Lafayette Escadrille? Nieuport or Spad ring any
bells? Moron.

Rob

Let's see, 85 years ago some US pilots flew French aircraft, so current
French
aircraft must be wonderful. Really strange logic at work there.

Current French aircraft, while not exactly "crap", are not state of the
art and
are clearly inferior to their US counterparts.

Al Minyard

Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during the
first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406 while
inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from 1939-40. The
D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the surrender and was
certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of the time.
After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to the Israelis who
racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage out of the aircraft
against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super Mystere, Vautour, and
Mirage.
Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very
capable aircraft.
You just don't like anything foreign Al.

Rob

while touring France i got to see a variety of different French combat
aircraft. some of the older ones were the Ouragan and Vautour.

i saw an Ouragan on display at the Abbeville Airfield. that aircraft
is always overlooked. it served with the French and Israeli air forces
as well as Indian Navy (as Toofani). in Israeli service it attacked
the Egyptian 1st Armored Division in Sinai and disabled the Egyptian
destroyer Ibrahim el Awal which was captured by the Israeli Navy. in
the 1980s Israel supplied El Salvador with 18 Ouragans for operations
against leftist guerillas.

i also saw a S.O.4050 Vautour at the Aerienne base at Reims on display
outside. the Vautour also served with the Israeli air force as a
bomber and ECM aircraft. the Vautour served in the Six Day war and
destroyed 309 aircraft on the ground including Tu-16 bombers. they
also harassed arab tank formations.

while not a fan of French aircraft i can still appreciate the
successful aircraft they built.

it will be interesting to see if the new Rafale will see combat in the
future.

Jason

if you've never been to France before you gotta go. despite the
anti-French stuff going around, a lot of Americans still travel there.
Paris is wonderful and the people are not as arrogant as we make them
out to be. if anything Americans are the really rude people when they
tour Europe. we don't take time to really plan a tour efficiently,
bring the right essentials, prepare for emergency situations, or
bother to learn the language of the countries we visit.
its not the fault of the French for loathing loud, arrogant Americans
who think they can do anything they want anywhere in the world.

On 02 Nov 2003 18:12:33 GMT, 362436 (Ron) wrote:

rom: "NEMO ME IMPUNE"
Date: 11/2/2003 10:44 AM Mountain Standard Time
Message-id:

Have you ever been able to make a SST?
NOPE

Of course we could have. We had the XB-70 capable of Mach 3 40 years ago,
which in some ways could be considered an SST.

The SST did not happen because of not being able to, there was a lot of public
opposition for environmental reasons.

The government was helping to fund it since it was so expensive, but stopped
funding it, which killed it.

Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

And would have killed the concord if the governments of France and the UK
would have been interested in anything other than the "prestige" of flying
a costly white elephant.

Al Minyard

On 2 Nov 2003 19:13:22 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in message . ..
On 2 Nov 2003 02:39:53 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

(Tom R. Rastell) wrote in message . com...
because the French are frogs and frogs can´t fly!


Oh really? Then please explain why Americans were flying French a/c in
WW1. Ever heard of the Lafayette Escadrille? Nieuport or Spad ring any
bells? Moron.

Rob

Let's see, 85 years ago some US pilots flew French aircraft, so current French
aircraft must be wonderful. Really strange logic at work there.

Current French aircraft, while not exactly "crap", are not state of the art and
are clearly inferior to their US counterparts.

Al Minyard

Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during the
first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406 while
inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from 1939-40. The
D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the surrender and was
certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of the time.
After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to the Israelis who
racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage out of the aircraft
against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super Mystere, Vautour, and
Mirage.
Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very
capable aircraft.
You just don't like anything foreign Al.

Rob

Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35 and F-22
are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in France. And
quoting unverified numbers from a war that France lost in record time
does little to bolster your case.

Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export sales
of the F-35.

Al Minyard

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 04:04:47 -0000, "Matt" wrote:

Just the standard 'blah blah America superior to the rest of the world in
absolutely every respect blah blah" Al post.

The Rafale is a nice aircraft, and excellent value when you take it's weapon
systems - MICA, SCALP-EG, etc - into account. The Republic of Korea's Air
Force wanted the Rafale with uprated engines, but since the US offered the
F-15K with economic offsets that actually outweigh the price of the contract
(i..e. they essentially payed the Koreans to take it), they went for that
instead. Suprise!

The F-15K is a very nice aircraft, but the base airframe is getting on in
years.

Matt

The Rafale has ZERO export sales, despite offsets equal to any offered
by the US. The F-35 has thousands. Do try to keep up.

Al Minyard

Alan Minyard wrote in
:
On 2 Nov 2003 19:13:22 -0800, (robert arndt)
wrote:

Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during
the first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406
while inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from
1939-40. The D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the
surrender and was certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of
the time. After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to
the Israelis who racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage
out of the aircraft against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super
Mystere, Vautour, and Mirage.
Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very
capable aircraft.
You just don't like anything foreign Al.

Rob

Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35
and F-22 are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in
France.

I'd agree on the two latter, but on the paper I'd say the Rafael
easily matches those three for it's intended roles. And it
does that years ahead of both the F22 and F35.

We could just JOUST it for an interesting perspective:

http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.ne...hter/tech.html


Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export
sales of the F-35.

What export sales?



Regards...

Alan Minyard wrote in
:
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 04:04:47 -0000, "Matt"
wrote:

Just the standard 'blah blah America superior to the rest of the
world in absolutely every respect blah blah" Al post.

The Rafale is a nice aircraft, and excellent value when you take
it's weapon systems - MICA, SCALP-EG, etc - into account. The
Republic of Korea's Air Force wanted the Rafale with uprated
engines, but since the US offered the F-15K with economic
offsets that actually outweigh the price of the contract (i..e.
they essentially payed the Koreans to take it), they went for
that instead. Suprise!

The F-15K is a very nice aircraft, but the base airframe is
getting on in years.

Matt

The Rafale has ZERO export sales, despite offsets equal to any
offered by the US. The F-35 has thousands. Do try to keep up.

I don't understand your POV. The F35 is 5 years, if all
goes well, from even entering service with the US -- the Rafale
has already been in service for two years.



Regards...

Rafale is a fine plane. Regardless of what I think about French policies,
their aircraft are not bad at all. At least they have finally perfected the
F-102

(grin)


Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

At least they have finally perfected the
F-102

(grin)


Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter


Which goes all the way back to the Lippisch DM-1/P13a aircraft of
1945. I guess all that rushed testing at Langley paid off. Another
stolen German/French idea*.

Rob

* Payen Flechair delta was captured by the Germans in 1940. Although
it didn't influence Lippisch's design, Payen deserves credit for the
delta wing. His designs were to deltas what the Hortens were to flying
wings.

(robert arndt) wrote:

At least they have finally perfected the
F-102

(grin)

Which goes all the way back to the Lippisch DM-1/P13a aircraft of
1945.

Not to mention about a hundred odd little prototypes of one sort or
another from the previous thirty years. And a couple of Englishmen who
actually patented a delta wing design (that never flew) in the late
1860s. Yes, that's *eighteen*-sixties.

I guess all that rushed testing at Langley paid off. Another
stolen German/French idea*.

* Payen Flechair delta was captured by the Germans in 1940. Although
it didn't influence Lippisch's design, Payen deserves credit for the
delta wing. His designs were to deltas what the Hortens were to flying
wings.

Except that delta wings had been tried, on and off, for decades. They
were never that useful, due to the comparatively small engines and low
airspeeds before WWII.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 04:04:47 -0000, "Matt" wrote:

Just the standard 'blah blah America superior to the rest of the world in
absolutely every respect blah blah" Al post.

The Rafale is a nice aircraft, and excellent value when you take it's
weapon
systems - MICA, SCALP-EG, etc - into account. The Republic of Korea's Air
Force wanted the Rafale with uprated engines, but since the US offered
the
F-15K with economic offsets that actually outweigh the price of the
contract
(i..e. they essentially payed the Koreans to take it), they went for that
instead. Suprise!

The F-15K is a very nice aircraft, but the base airframe is getting on in
years.

Matt

The Rafale has ZERO export sales, despite offsets equal to any offered
by the US. The F-35 has thousands. Do try to keep up.

Al Minyard

Nice to see you completely failed to do any research whatsoever before
opening your ass, I mean, mouth.

The Rafale deal offered to South Korea was essentially a licensed production
deal, with Dassault offering to transfer an entire Rafale production line to
Seoul. France would build the first few aircraft, and then provide a few
limited components once the line was established. In the end, it worked out
to around a $4bn offset.

The US/Boeing offer was a transferred-tech deal that directly shook out to
about $3.2bn once the US government gave Boeing a $250m subsidy to reduce
the overall price, but was closer to $6bn in linked defence and economic
loans. The bottom line from the US was "If you don't buy our fighter, we're
not going to give you these loans. Oh, and we're currently reviewing your
most-favoured-nation trade status. No pressure!"

The F-35 has zero - nil - export sales. A number of foreign governments,
including the UK, are contributing financially to the development process as
partners... but no-one has actually bought the aircraft yet, including the
US. All the 'partner nations' get for their money is technological
information and, in the case of the UK, component production contracts.
After all, Bush might still cancel it to pay for his adventure in Iraq.

Do try to keep up!

Matt