IFR ticket vs. professional training (MD, PhD...)

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:44:37 GMT, wrote:

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:42:44 GMT, Bob Moore
wrote:

john smith wrote
Gee Bob, you must be "new" to aviation in the USofA.

New since 1958 :-) :-) and an FAA certificated instrument
instructor since 1970 and I've never taught IFR ratings or
tickets. I have ,however, taught many students training for
their instrument rating.

Bob


Well, technically, you are not an "instrument instructor", but rather
a "flight instructor" with an "instrument" rating.


And, while I think of it, your do not teach "training" unless you are
teaching how to train.

You are, instead, "giving" the training for their instrument ratings.

(God, but isn't pedantry a lot of fun sometimes?)

I think your MD friend is mostly correct. Flying is only mentally
challenging until you become competent, then it becomes automatic and easy
like driving. You can't really know that IFR flying will always be
challenging since you are so new to it that you don't even have the rating
yet. There are basically four phases to learning:

1) unconscious incompetent-you don't know what to do and you can't do the
task
2) conscious incompetent- you mentally know what to do but can't do it
3) conscious competent-you mentally know what to do and you cam do it
4) Unconsious competent-you can do the task without thinking about it.

As an instrument sutdent you are probably at level two.

Mike
MU-2

"G. Sylvester" wrote in message
m...

I got into a discussion with an non-pilot MD comparing
a professional degree versus flying.

My background, BS and MS from the top 2 bioengineering programs
in the US. (note, I put *much* more weight to experience over letters
after a name including my own). Flying-wise, I have a PPL and
about 33 hours into my IFR ticket. I should be able to complete
it in under 45 so I'm probably ahead of the curve but a I gotta put
much of this on my book and mental preparation before each
flight and ahead of time that others didn't commit to. I plan
on doing this for the challenge, excitement and unique lifestyle
of being a pilot. I might, in fact, probably will become a CFI(I)
but not full time. We'll see. If someone pays me $10 (or better
yet $500,000) to fly their challenger or Citation to wherever I want
to go, I'll consider. ;-) I've been in professional challenging
situations and none have come close to IFR in IMC.

Overall, my flying experience is just like everyone elses. It is
challenging but by the time you get your ticket and after that
still challenging as it is a never ending battle with learning to stay
ahead of the plane.
The IFR ticket is definitely a step above that as the consequences
is a LOT greater. It is a licence to kill and there is a NEVER ending
true battle with learning everything to save the asses to which the plane
is strapped to. IFR is and will always be for me, the non-professional,
challenging. Certainly after my training, my head hurts from the
concentration level required. All of this is absolutely impossible to
explain to a non-pilot...even a non-IFR pilot it is difficult.

Back to the original question. This person I had the discussion with
is under the impression of flying is probably more like driving and
anybody
can do it. This person is the typical MD, their way is the only way and
they
are the only ones who do it right and no one else can comprehend (I work
for a medical device company and have dealt with hundreds of
neurosurgeons, oncologists and medical physicists around the world).

So the big question, compared to a your profession, how does flying
VFR and IFR compare with regards to training, proficiency, continued
training, mental challenge and anything else that comes to mind? No
need to convince me but more to convince the non-pilot. In particular
I'd like to hear from the professions that require advanced degrees.

Gerald Sylvester

I'm an insurance actuary; it took me 8 years of home study to be fully
accredited. The IFR written was a lot easier.

I just got my rating last year, and find that routine IFR is no big
deal, but proficiency is another story - the process of doing 3
approaches in rapid succession with successive holds and route
intersections typical of what you do for the practical exam requires a
level of concentration which in my life compares only with high-level
musical performance (I'm a singer in my spare time).

"Mike Rapoport" wrote:
4) Unconsious competent-you can do the task without thinking about it.

Have you made it to "unconscious competent" yet?

After 5+ years of instrument flying, I must say I haven't achieved this
state. I doubt I ever shall, flying only about ten actual approaches per
year plus a dozen for practice. I find that flying approaches in IMC still
requires intense, deliberate concentration for me to stay ahead of the
situation.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

I think that I have. I recieved the IR in 1998 and have flown over 1500hrs
since then in the same airplane and virtually all of the flying in the MU-2
is IFR because of the fuel savings in the flight levels. I no longer
consciously "scan" the instruments, I just look at the panel and take in the
information. I also find that my skills don't atrophy as fast as they did
1000hrs ago. I get about 6hrs of simulator time every year at Simcom,
virtually all of which is IMC. I don't do any practice approaches or
training in the airplane. I don't know how much of this is avionics (Garmin
530/430, GPS roll steering, Flight Director, dual HSI's and RMI's) and a
stable airplane vs how much is applicable to experience.

I am somewhere between conscious competent and unconscious competent in the
Helio. I certainly haven't mastered the airplane but I no longer conciously
think about "dancing" on the rudder pedals and that kind of stuff.

Mike
MU-2


"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote:
4) Unconsious competent-you can do the task without thinking about it.

Have you made it to "unconscious competent" yet?

After 5+ years of instrument flying, I must say I haven't achieved this
state. I doubt I ever shall, flying only about ten actual approaches per
year plus a dozen for practice. I find that flying approaches in IMC
still
requires intense, deliberate concentration for me to stay ahead of the
situation.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

Interesting how many engineers, and especially EEs there are on this
thread.

Anyway, I've got a BSEE and work in the semiconductor business. To me,
comparing flying IFR and doing my job is really just apples and
oranges.

I don't do enough flying in IMC to say that it is second nature for me,
and it probably never will be, but overall, the intellectual task is
not anywhere as difficult as circuit design. Then again, when I was
doing design, if I got confused while doing my day job, I could get up,
get a cup of coffee and chat in the breakroom until I was ready to face
my workstation. Can't do that in an airplane.

Nowadays, I'm an FAE (Field Apps) and, while meeting with customers
there is a real-time component to the job, but still, it's nothing like
IFR flight. As someone else said: death is not a likely outcome from a
customer meeting. (Aside from the times I want to kill my customers.)

So, I think the difference is that learning to fly IFR is not as taxing
mentally as an advanced degree or practicing an art that requires an
advanced degree. However, flying requires quick thinking and constant
attention that few other domains approach.

For the computer nerds: design engineering is like running a huge, cpu
and disk instensive cad tool on your GHz PC. Flying is like a little
high-priority service routine that only burns a few MIPS of that CPU.
However, god help you if you don't handle that interrupt in a timely
manner.

For all you super-duper engineer pilots out there, try solving
Schroedinger's wave equation while flying in IMC. No autopilots or
scratch paper allowed.

Dave J

jacobowitz73 --at-- yahoo --dot-- com

So Bob,
what kind of plane do you drive?



Gerald


Bob Moore wrote:
"G. Sylvester" wrote

My background, BS and MS from the top 2 bioengineering programs
in the US. (note, I put *much* more weight to experience over letters
after a name including my own). Flying-wise, I have a PPL and
about 33 hours into my IFR ticket.


Well Gerald.....
Here in the USofA, those of us with just a high school diploma
know that you don't have a "PPL" and there is no such thing as
an "IFR ticket".
You may very well posess a "Private Pilot Certificate" and might
just be studying for an "Instrument Rating".
Unlike Europe and other parts of the world, the US government does
not "license" pilots, but instead issues them a "certificate" of
competence. In FAA speak, IFR means Instrument Flight Rules and
a ticket will just get you into the movie theater or a ball game.

Bob Moore

I would probably comparing a pilot's license to something like getting an
EMT certification. A doctor I know once told me that the way he looked at
medicine was that no single thing in it was all that difficult, but in order
to be a physician you needed to know thousands upon thousands of specific
things and how they all fit together. An EMT may not have a HS diploma but
knows a handful of things to try to keep you alive for the 30 minutes it
takes to get you to the hospital. The MD equivalent for aviation might be an
ATP/A&P who once worked as an air traffic controller and has an aerospace
engineering degree.

that's probably the best comparison in my view. Thanks.

I do however think there are some similarities, in that both medicine and
aviation are the practice of both art and science... Another similarity is that both are
"high consequence" activities that are potentially very intolerant of small
errors. On the other hand, when a doctor screws up, he usually doesn't get
killed along with the patient.

exactly and this was a big point that I was trying to make to this MD.
He just thought of flying like jumping into the car and going for a spin
but it takes quite a bit more to do it competently, proficiently and safely.

I've had the pleasure of knowing a couple very distinguished physicians, and
they are among the most humble and self-effacing people I know, far more so
than a lot of corporate VPs, lawyers, and real estate agents who have no
remote right to their arrogance.

You don't deal with many neurosurgeons. The word ego is defined by them.
....not all, but 98% of them. They are probably the F22 and F116
drivers of our bunch. ;-)


Gerald

wrote:
As someone else said: death is not a likely outcome from a
customer meeting. (Aside from the times I want to kill my customers.)

awesome.


And thanks everyone else for the interesting comparisons.

Gerald

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 121...
Well Gerald.....
Here in the USofA, those of us with just a high school diploma
know that you don't have a "PPL"and there is no such thing as
an "IFR ticket".
Unlike Europe and other parts
of the world, the US government does not "license" pilots, but instead
issues them a "certificate" of competence.

Of course the US government licenses pilots. A "license" is a document that
confers permission to do something that is otherwise forbidden. A
private-pilot certificate is therefore a license, and is reasonably called a
PPL.

As for "ticket", check your dictionary: "ticket 1a: a document that serves
as a certificate, license, or permit; especially: a mariner's or airman's
certificate" (www.m-w.com).

--Gary