Stall/spin and ground reference maneuvers

snort, chuckle...


"John Carlyle" wrote in message
...
Thanks, Dan. I suspected you'd keep on with what was familiar to you.

-John, Q3

PS - My Navy buddies tell me they do circling approaches because the
airstrip is moving. Air Force pilots copy Navy pilots because the field
knows an Air Force pilot is coming and it will run away... grin

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 11:10:00 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
John,

Yes, I would. It's the pattern I've flown for 40+ years and it's always
worked well for me. I would not consider changing to a square base with
a
90 degree turn to final during a critical outlanding at a fenced field.
Likewise, I wouldn't advise anyone to switch to a circling landing under
the
same circumstances.

I plan my patterns to roll to a stop at the same location every time
using
minimal wheel brake. I do this with calm winds and 30+ kt winds. I find
it
easier to plan and execute simply by changing the point where I begin my
final turn.

PS - Navy pilots can't land, then only crash and hope the wire stops them
before they go over the side. ;-)

"John Carlyle" wrote in message
...
Dan,

Would you do a circling approach if you were going into a difficult
strip,
too? Say, a narrow cornfield surrounded by trees. I ask because the
Navy
pilots I know who fly gliders have reverted to the non-circling
approach.

-John, Q3


On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 12:59:10 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:

I fly my pattern just like Kirk, though a little higher and faster at
the

start. I begin my descending final turn when abeam the touchdown
point

and

roll out on final at about 200 ft and over the numbers. I do this
both

in

my LAK and in the tow planes.



I did it this way in the Air Force and when I flew a King Air for

FlightSafety. The only exception was in the B-727. Gotta be gentle
for

the

pax.

On 3/5/2014 2:53 PM, John Carlyle wrote:
Agree with your three points of how pilots get into trouble. I also agree
that training is important, and that it's never a bad idea to take a ride
with an instructor.

I'm not sure I buy your theory of an optical illusion in your peripheral
vision causing your central vision and inner ear to start giving you bad
data, though. It takes time (probably a minute) without good visual cues
for your inner ear to start disconnecting from reality.

Apologies for the thread drift, but my experience strongly suggests the
"probably a minute" for inner ear to disconnect from reality is "probably
(way?) too long."

I once inadvertently entered an utterly benign (no overdevelopment anywhere
that day) thermal cloud by horribly misjudging the base in conjunction with a
honking climb rate. In the dry intermountain west, racing another guy half a
mile away over the plains of eastern Colorado, it went from CAVU VFR to
solidly-opaque IFR more or less instantly. Flying in a
large-deflection-landing-flap-equipped sailplane (no spoilers) thousands of
feet agl in the middle of nowhere, I wasn't worried about pulling my wings
off, but I *was* distinctly irked at my poor judgment, mostly because if I
didn't fly out the side of the cloud quickly, my buddy would gain considerably
on me. (Standard glider pilot priorities!)

I'd at least had the sense to establish my climb near the far edge of the
miles-long cloud, had a long-established bank angle/turn-rate, and figured I'd
a good chance of rolling out on a heading to have me clear of the cloud within
no more than 5-10 seconds at the most. Without moving my head, once inside the
solidly opaque cloud, and not touching the controls until estimating it was
time to roll out, I did so, timing/estimating wings level, and waited. The
only thing that happened "instantly" was violent vertigo, and within 15
seconds several things were clear: 1) I wasn't going to exit the side of the
cloud; 2) I'd stalled at least once (at which point I pulled on full flaps);
and 3) it was anyone's guess how long I'd be in the cloud and what my flight
path might be while there. Ultimately, I lost 700 feet from my max altitude
before exiting the thing, out the bottom, steeply banked the opposite
direction from that entered, and never knowingly having commanded bank after
the attempt to unbank to level. My buddy was nowhere in sight, of course.

Point being, don't bet your life on having much time IFR before losing
complete control of your glider. Secondary point being (of course!) don't go
IFR at all, but if you DO go IFR be prepared to lose your wings and maybe your
life unless your glider has gobs of disposable drag...as has had every
landing-flap-equipped sailplane I've flown. Wonderful things, large deflection
flaps!

Bob - occasionally bozo - W.

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 12:08:55 PM UTC-6, John Carlyle wrote:

Thank for writing that - very interesting that you mix approach types.

My experience is that you can never be sure that you will be able to fly a "textbook" pattern, so better to be comfortable in a variety of situations. It's a matter of getting your glider from where it is to short final to your desired landing area, at a safe speed and altitude for the existing conditions. Patterns are guides - but one can land safely from all sorts of patterns; one can also (as we are proving) crash from "textbook" patterns.


I'm not too clear about your comment "always flying the same pattern into the same airfield pretty much guarantees that your first landout will be exciting". I always use a downwind-base-final pattern, I've logged 10 landouts in farmers fields, and except for having to dodge an electric wire fence once they were low or no drama events (although some of the retrieves were interesting).


If you have the luxury of large fields and plenty of time, then setting up a "standard" pattern is always a good option - but what if you don't have those options? You may find on base that the field you picked is not landable, or the wind changes 180 degrees due to a gust front; you may be following a valley and have to suddenly land in that field on your left; or you may get back to your own field and be in a gaggle of gliders all vying for the same runway at the same time. Most of my landouts have been benign also - but I've also done a couple of final glides into fields that I couldn't see and the pattern consisted of one turn, gear & flaps down, and land. I think you have to be prepared for these kinds of eventualities, and be able to fly your glider safely when low and stressed. That takes planning and practice.


Your "de-stabilized" (non-constant airspeed) approach comment was also interesting. I tend to keep high until on final, just to keep my options open, but my speed stays pretty much constant. Being high has helped me on several occasions to delay a bit (once a person behind me with no radio landed under me, another time someone drove onto the field). Do I understand correctly that you tend to keep your energy in speed rather than altitude?


Energy is the key, high and fast is nice, lower and fast is OK, but slow and low is never good until over the threshold! I see my "hot" pattern speed as a minimum and if it gets a bit high I don't worry about it - final is a fine time to decelerate and get ready to land. Again, it depends on the situation - if there are lots of gliders around trying to land, then playing off altitude and speed is a useful tool to use to get sequenced into the flow - and extra speed on final is good unless you KNOW you have to land short! If there is nothing going on and it's the last landing of the day, then a perfect, constant speed pattern is a fun challenge; but if it's a hectic arrival, I may have to maneuver aggressively to get down; then speed control is more of the "stay fast, stay fast, stay fast..." variety until the immediate problem of where to go is solved. Stall/spins make lousy pattern entries!

Cheers,

Kirk
66

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 8:01:30 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
On 3/5/2014 2:53 PM, John Carlyle wrote:

Agree with your three points of how pilots get into trouble. I also agree

that training is important, and that it's never a bad idea to take a ride

with an instructor.



I'm not sure I buy your theory of an optical illusion in your peripheral

vision causing your central vision and inner ear to start giving you bad

data, though. It takes time (probably a minute) without good visual cues

for your inner ear to start disconnecting from reality.



Apologies for the thread drift, but my experience strongly suggests the

"probably a minute" for inner ear to disconnect from reality is "probably

(way?) too long."



I once inadvertently entered an utterly benign (no overdevelopment anywhere

that day) thermal cloud by horribly misjudging the base in conjunction with a

honking climb rate. In the dry intermountain west, racing another guy half a

mile away over the plains of eastern Colorado, it went from CAVU VFR to

solidly-opaque IFR more or less instantly. Flying in a

large-deflection-landing-flap-equipped sailplane (no spoilers) thousands of

feet agl in the middle of nowhere, I wasn't worried about pulling my wings

off, but I *was* distinctly irked at my poor judgment, mostly because if I

didn't fly out the side of the cloud quickly, my buddy would gain considerably

on me. (Standard glider pilot priorities!)



I'd at least had the sense to establish my climb near the far edge of the

miles-long cloud, had a long-established bank angle/turn-rate, and figured I'd

a good chance of rolling out on a heading to have me clear of the cloud within

no more than 5-10 seconds at the most. Without moving my head, once inside the

solidly opaque cloud, and not touching the controls until estimating it was

time to roll out, I did so, timing/estimating wings level, and waited. The

only thing that happened "instantly" was violent vertigo, and within 15

seconds several things were clear: 1) I wasn't going to exit the side of the

cloud; 2) I'd stalled at least once (at which point I pulled on full flaps);

and 3) it was anyone's guess how long I'd be in the cloud and what my flight

path might be while there. Ultimately, I lost 700 feet from my max altitude

before exiting the thing, out the bottom, steeply banked the opposite

direction from that entered, and never knowingly having commanded bank after

the attempt to unbank to level. My buddy was nowhere in sight, of course.



Point being, don't bet your life on having much time IFR before losing

complete control of your glider. Secondary point being (of course!) don't go

IFR at all, but if you DO go IFR be prepared to lose your wings and maybe your

life unless your glider has gobs of disposable drag...as has had every

landing-flap-equipped sailplane I've flown. Wonderful things, large deflection

flaps!



Bob - occasionally bozo - W.

The best data says a pilot will lose control of the aircraft in mere seconds in a cloud if not trained and equipped for instrument flight.

The inner ear serves no useful purpose in aviators. It only serves to induce one of the many aviation specific illusions and/or vertigo. We didn't evolve to fly so we must learn to deal with our limitations. The best pilots learn to ignore vestibular sensations and rely on sight - viewing instruments or outside cues. This lesson is best learned under a hood with a CFII in the right seat.

Bill D wrote, On 3/3/2014 7:54 PM:
The argument which says one should avoid low turns ignores the fact
that every glider flight ends with at least one turn at or below 300'
AGL.

I'm on short final at 300' AGL, because I usually enter the pattern at
about 1000' AGL. My turns to base are typically 600-700' AGL. I don't
use spoilers until I'm on final, because using spoiler earlier means my
downwind/base and base/final turns will be lower than they would be
otherwise.

Am I that unusual? Why would you want to be as low 300' on your turn to
final?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

At 04:15 06 March 2014, Bill D wrote:
On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 8:01:30 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
On 3/5/2014 2:53 PM, John Carlyle wrote:
=20
Agree with your three points of how pilots get into trouble. I also
agr=
ee
=20
that training is important, and that it's never a bad idea to take a
ri=
de
=20
with an instructor.
=20

=20
I'm not sure I buy your theory of an optical illusion in your
periphera=
l
=20
vision causing your central vision and inner ear to start giving you
ba=
d
=20
data, though. It takes time (probably a minute) without good visual
cue=
s
=20
for your inner ear to start disconnecting from reality.
=20
=20
=20
Apologies for the thread drift, but my experience strongly suggests
the=
=20
=20
"probably a minute" for inner ear to disconnect from reality is
"probably=
=20
=20
(way?) too long."
=20
=20
=20
I once inadvertently entered an utterly benign (no overdevelopment
anywhe=
re=20
=20
that day) thermal cloud by horribly misjudging the base in conjunction
wi=
th a=20
=20
honking climb rate. In the dry intermountain west, racing another guy
hal=
f a=20
=20
mile away over the plains of eastern Colorado, it went from CAVU VFR
to=
=20
=20
solidly-opaque IFR more or less instantly. Flying in a=20
=20
large-deflection-landing-flap-equipped sailplane (no spoilers)
thousands
=
of=20
=20
feet agl in the middle of nowhere, I wasn't worried about pulling my
wing=
s=20
=20
off, but I *was* distinctly irked at my poor judgment, mostly because
if
=
I=20
=20
didn't fly out the side of the cloud quickly, my buddy would gain
conside=
rably=20
=20
on me. (Standard glider pilot priorities!)
=20
=20
=20
I'd at least had the sense to establish my climb near the far edge of
the=
=20
=20
miles-long cloud, had a long-established bank angle/turn-rate, and
figure=
d I'd=20
=20
a good chance of rolling out on a heading to have me clear of the cloud
w=
ithin=20
=20
no more than 5-10 seconds at the most. Without moving my head, once
insid=
e the=20
=20
solidly opaque cloud, and not touching the controls until estimating it
w=
as=20
=20
time to roll out, I did so, timing/estimating wings level, and waited.
Th=
e=20
=20
only thing that happened "instantly" was violent vertigo, and within
15=
=20
=20
seconds several things were clear: 1) I wasn't going to exit the side
of
=
the=20
=20
cloud; 2) I'd stalled at least once (at which point I pulled on full
flap=
s);=20
=20
and 3) it was anyone's guess how long I'd be in the cloud and what my
fli=
ght=20
=20
path might be while there. Ultimately, I lost 700 feet from my max
altitu=
de=20
=20
before exiting the thing, out the bottom, steeply banked the
opposite=20
=20
direction from that entered, and never knowingly having commanded bank
af=
ter=20
=20
the attempt to unbank to level. My buddy was nowhere in sight, of
course.
=20
=20
=20
Point being, don't bet your life on having much time IFR before
losing=20
=20
complete control of your glider. Secondary point being (of course!)
don't=
go=20
=20
IFR at all, but if you DO go IFR be prepared to lose your wings and
maybe=
your=20
=20
life unless your glider has gobs of disposable drag...as has had
every=20
=20
landing-flap-equipped sailplane I've flown. Wonderful things, large
defle=
ction=20
=20
flaps!
=20
=20
=20
Bob - occasionally bozo - W.

The best data says a pilot will lose control of the aircraft in mere
second=
s in a cloud if not trained and equipped for instrument flight.

The inner ear serves no useful purpose in aviators. It only serves to
indu=
ce one of the many aviation specific illusions and/or vertigo. We didn't
e=
volve to fly so we must learn to deal with our limitations. The best
pilot=
s learn to ignore vestibular sensations and rely on sight - viewing
instrum=
ents or outside cues. This lesson is best learned under a hood with a
CFII=
in the right seat.


One small piece of advice on this, keep your head still, turning it to look
left and right and upwards greatly increases the disorientatation as you
move semi-circular canals in and out of the plane of rotation.

Getting people to do that whilst in cloud has always been part of my cloud
flying training routine, though it normally comes after a few cloud flying
trips to build up experience.

At 06:25 06 March 2014, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Bill D wrote, On 3/3/2014 7:54 PM:
The argument which says one should avoid low turns ignores the fact
that every glider flight ends with at least one turn at or below 300'
AGL.

I'm on short final at 300' AGL, because I usually enter the pattern at
about 1000' AGL. My turns to base are typically 600-700' AGL. I don't
use spoilers until I'm on final, because using spoiler earlier means my
downwind/base and base/final turns will be lower than they would be
otherwise.

Am I that unusual? Why would you want to be as low 300' on your turn to
final?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

Perhaps because you only got 1100 feet off your winch launch and you used
400 feet of that failing to find a thermal.

Chris Rollings wrote, On 3/6/2014 3:10 AM:
At 06:25 06 March 2014, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Bill D wrote, On 3/3/2014 7:54 PM:
The argument which says one should avoid low turns ignores the fact
that every glider flight ends with at least one turn at or below 300'
AGL.

I'm on short final at 300' AGL, because I usually enter the pattern at
about 1000' AGL. My turns to base are typically 600-700' AGL. I don't
use spoilers until I'm on final, because using spoiler earlier means my
downwind/base and base/final turns will be lower than they would be
otherwise.

Am I that unusual? Why would you want to be as low 300' on your turn to
final?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

Perhaps because you only got 1100 feet off your winch launch and you used
400 feet of that failing to find a thermal.

So, not exactly a "want", but an acceptable compromise between safety
and soaring? If you could routinely launch to 2000', would you be much
less inclined to enter the pattern so low that the turn to final would
be 300'?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Thursday, March 6, 2014 8:38:59 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:

So, not exactly a "want", but an acceptable compromise between safety
and soaring? If you could routinely launch to 2000', would you be much
less inclined to enter the pattern so low that the turn to final would
be 300'?


I thought turning final at 300-350' was pretty common. But I come from a Navy/Marine Corps family that keeps the pattern pretty tight.

;-)

9B

Bob,

I've never experienced vertigo during flight (only on the ground from illness or alcohol issues), so I'm happy to admit I was wrong by a factor of 10 in estimating its onset. Can we settle on a vertigo onset of 5-10 seconds for sake of argument?

Getting back to the original topic, there we are, in our base to final turn with our ASI reading yellow diamond value plus half the wind speed. Suppose we shift our gaze from over the nose (where we were looking at pitch, yaw string and bank angle) towards the inside wing (to check that the airport hasn't run away). In our peripheral vision we see some unusual motion of the wing. We can either ignore it and keep on flying the plane, or we can focus on it. If we ignore it, no problem, but if we focus on it there are four possibilities as to what can happen next.

First case, we tell ourselves "that's interesting, but I've got a plane to fly", we shift our gaze back to the nose, keep the turn coordinated and successfully land. Second case, we tell ourselves "that's interesting, I've never seen anything like that, I wonder why that's happening, doesn't matter now, I've got a plane to fly", we shift our gaze back to the nose, keep the turn coordinated and successfully land. Third case, we tell ourselves "that's interesting, I've never seen anything like that, I wonder why that's happening, hmmm, maybe I should put in some more rudder", and we don't land successfully. Fourth case, we tell ourselves "that's interesting, I've never seen anything like that, I wonder why that's happening, hmmm, wow those trees are close and they're really moving funny, I'm going to have to remember this to tell the guys all about it, I wonder if I bleed off too much altitude, hey there's a good looking lady down there, wonder if she sees me up here, whoops, I'm dizzy and don't feel too good, gee those trees are really close and now they're spinning around and around, oh I'm sick" and we don't land successfully.

In the first two cases, there's no problem. I think we can agree case four is very, very unlikely, as no one is likely to fixate on something unusual for so long (5-10 seconds) when they're low that they'll succumb to vertigo and crash. It's drummed into us as students that above all else, we need to fly the plane, no matter what.

But what about case three? Some in this thread have said it's possible, and that one needs ground reference training to become familiar with the reverse wing tip movement sensation so you don't try to "correct it". Maybe, but I'd argue no. First, you're going to have to quit doing something very important (maintaining a coordinated turn while low) to focus on something secondary in order to realize what's happening. Next you're going to have to "do something" impulsively without cross-checking with a quick gaze at your yaw string that something really needs to be done to maintain your coordinated turn. If you're the sort that would be susceptible to these actions, I'd suggest there's training in other areas that needs to be accomplished first before you consider ground reference training.

Now, let me follow your topic drift. Suppose it takes 5-10 seconds without outside orientation references for vertigo to set in. Why wouldn't all the passengers in the center section of a widebody at night get nauseous? If your answer is "they use the cabin as an orientation reference for their inner ear", then why can't the pilot use his cockpit features for the same purpose? He'll probably still lose control of the aircraft, but he shouldn't become nauseous.

-John, Q3

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 10:01:30 PM UTC-5, BobW wrote:
Apologies for the thread drift, but my experience strongly suggests the
"probably a minute" for inner ear to disconnect from reality is "probably
(way?) too long."

I once inadvertently entered an utterly benign (no overdevelopment anywhere
that day) thermal cloud by horribly misjudging the base in conjunction with a
honking climb rate. In the dry intermountain west, racing another guy half a
mile away over the plains of eastern Colorado, it went from CAVU VFR to
solidly-opaque IFR more or less instantly. Flying in a
large-deflection-landing-flap-equipped sailplane (no spoilers) thousands of
feet agl in the middle of nowhere, I wasn't worried about pulling my wings
off, but I *was* distinctly irked at my poor judgment, mostly because if I
didn't fly out the side of the cloud quickly, my buddy would gain considerably
on me. (Standard glider pilot priorities!)

I'd at least had the sense to establish my climb near the far edge of the
miles-long cloud, had a long-established bank angle/turn-rate, and figured I'd
a good chance of rolling out on a heading to have me clear of the cloud within
no more than 5-10 seconds at the most. Without moving my head, once inside the
solidly opaque cloud, and not touching the controls until estimating it was
time to roll out, I did so, timing/estimating wings level, and waited. The
only thing that happened "instantly" was violent vertigo, and within 15
seconds several things were clear: 1) I wasn't going to exit the side of the
cloud; 2) I'd stalled at least once (at which point I pulled on full flaps);
and 3) it was anyone's guess how long I'd be in the cloud and what my flight
path might be while there. Ultimately, I lost 700 feet from my max altitude
before exiting the thing, out the bottom, steeply banked the opposite
direction from that entered, and never knowingly having commanded bank after
the attempt to unbank to level. My buddy was nowhere in sight, of course.

Point being, don't bet your life on having much time IFR before losing
complete control of your glider. Secondary point being (of course!) don't go
IFR at all, but if you DO go IFR be prepared to lose your wings and maybe your
life unless your glider has gobs of disposable drag...as has had every
landing-flap-equipped sailplane I've flown. Wonderful things, large deflection
flaps!

Bob - occasionally bozo - W.