What constitutes a POH? New owner needs advice. (long)

Hi everyone!

L O N G time lurker, infrequent poster here. I have a question about
what must legally be carried in the airplane for the pilot operating
handbook.

But first, let me share with you a little bit of my experience buying
an airplane...You may remember a few months ago I was looking at a
Beech Sierra or Piper Comanche. I did find a nice Beech Sierra, and
made an offer contingent on a pre-buy, but I never heard back from the
owner, other than "I'm going on vacation and will call you in two
weeks". Subsequent phone calls & emails from me went unanswered. In
the meantime, I found a nice Comanche 180, but the seller, an elderly
gentleman, had a really high asking price that he was absolutely firm
on. I felt like I could not risk overpaying that much, especially in
this market. So I ended up finding another sweet Comanche 180, owned
by a fellow in his 70's. I made an offer that was within 95% of his
asking price, but he seemed so offended that we could not agree on
anything from that point forward. After all the research, analysis,
worry and angst that goes into deciding on a particlar make & model, I
had no idea that actually *buying* the plane would be this difficult!
I was beginning to wonder if it was me!

So then I find myself at the AOPA fly in. My wife & I are pushing our
son around in the stroller, when she spots a real sweet looking Bonanza
for sale. I'm thinking , yeah - dream on, who wouldnt want a Bonanza?
The purchase price might be manageable, but everyone knows how
expensive those things are to maintain. Right? And what about that
W&B issue? And the V tail? But we look a little closer. It's a '65 S
model, and the cabin seems positively huge compared to the Comanche's
we had been considering. It actually has six seats too. And there is
something "substantial" looking about the Bonanza, they way it sits up
on its tall gear.

So we join the ABS. Get out the actual W&B data and start running some
real word scenarios, calculating various take off and landing CG's.
It's something to be mindful of, but not that big of a deal, really.
We were always able to come up with loading arrangements that kept the
CG within limits.

The information from ABS satisfied many concerns. The issues with the
V tail seem to have been resolved with the various AD's. The issue of
high parts prices is valid, but the reality is you rarely need to buy
airframe parts, you are more liklely in need of engine & accessory type
parts (mags, vacuum pumps, plugs, etc), and those are all the same
price whether you fly a Beech or a Piper.

To make a long story short, after a very detailed prebuy and some
negotiation, we are now the proud owners of N5848K!!! Our first plane.
The discrepancies noted on the prebuy have now been fixed, and I'm
scheduled to do my checkout tomorrow with a high time Bonanza
instructor. I cant wait!!

In the meantime, and this brings me back to the original subject of
this post, I have gathered up all of the aircraft logs and records and
have them spread out on the kitchen table. The logs are complete but
they are not in any real order whatsoever. They were just kept in a
large duffel bag. I told my wife this scattered mess of paper probably
represents 10-15% of the value of the plane, so we'll need to get them
organized and archived for safekeeping. But for now, I want to make
sure the documentation in the aircraft is correct. Here are my
questions:

1) I have the original Aircraft Flight Manual. Is this the POH? It
has the aircraft serial number on it. It is only three pages long. Is
that all there is to it???
2) I have all the W&B data going back to day one. Do I have to keep
all of that in the plane, or just the most recent W&B?
3) STC's - it has a 3 blade Hartzell, Cleveland Brakes, D'Shannon
windshield - - do I need to keep these in the plane?
4) 337's - It has had damage history when it ran off a runway in 1980,
and a fuel truck backed into it in 1998. Do I have to keep the 337's
in the plane?

Thanks for any input you may have.

Richard

RH wrote:
/snip/
1) I have the original Aircraft Flight Manual. Is this the POH? It
has the aircraft serial number on it. It is only three pages long. Is
that all there is to it???
2) I have all the W&B data going back to day one. Do I have to keep
all of that in the plane, or just the most recent W&B?
3) STC's - it has a 3 blade Hartzell, Cleveland Brakes, D'Shannon
windshield - - do I need to keep these in the plane?
4) 337's - It has had damage history when it ran off a runway in 1980,
and a fuel truck backed into it in 1998. Do I have to keep the 337's
in the plane?

Thanks for any input you may have.

Richard


Richard,

Congrats on the new family member! I'm no Bonanza expert, but I
understand that the "S's" are a fine model, indeed.

As to your questions, I am not intimately familiar with your particular
AFM, but yes, life was a lot simpler in 1965. The Flight Manual is all
you need to have on board, and it is no doubt a *lot* simpler and more
to the point than modern equivalents. Only on aircraft built since 1979
do you have to carry a serialized POH.

As for W&B, just a copy of the latest iteration is required. Make a few
copies of typical (for you) "as loaded" worksheets, and carry them along
for good measure. None of the other maintenance logs are required to be
on board, and shouldn't be, in case of fire, theft, etc.

Happy Flying your new plane!
Scott Skylane

In the meantime, and this brings me back to the original subject of
this post, I have gathered up all of the aircraft logs and records and
have them spread out on the kitchen table. The logs are complete but
they are not in any real order whatsoever. They were just kept in a
large duffel bag. I told my wife this scattered mess of paper probably
represents 10-15% of the value of the plane, so we'll need to get them
organized and archived for safekeeping. But for now, I want to make
sure the documentation in the aircraft is correct.

Simply 3-hole punch them and keep them in a binder. I have three binders,
one for airframe, one for engine/propeller, and one for "appliances"
(radios, instruments, etc.). My current logbook entries are in the
computer, and I simply leave erase the previous entry, leave blank space to
accomodate the prior entries on that page, and type in the current entry.
Run the original log page through the printer, and viola, a current typed
entry including all prior entries ready for wet ink signature.

The airframe binder has several sections other than logbook. One is for the
original documents it left the factory with (factory weight and balance,
first airworthiness ride, equipment list, etc), another for every piece of
gear installed and removed over the years (keeps the equipment list up to
date, don'cha know), another for STC documents (autofuel, oxygen, etc.), and
another for miscellaneous. I'll post "the system" somewhere if I get enough
requests for it.







Here are my
questions:

1) I have the original Aircraft Flight Manual. Is this the POH? It
has the aircraft serial number on it. It is only three pages long. Is
that all there is to it???

Most aircraft predating ???? (1985 rings a bell) don't have POH per se. I
thought bo's came with a little more than that in the owner's manual.
Somebody pick me up on this.



2) I have all the W&B data going back to day one. Do I have to keep
all of that in the plane, or just the most recent W&B?

Neither is required. If you want to keep a copy of the most recent one in
the plane, go for it, but not required. I also keep a binder in my 182 with
the most recent w/b, autofuel stc, wind/range charts, etc., but not
required.


3) STC's - it has a 3 blade Hartzell, Cleveland Brakes, D'Shannon
windshield - - do I need to keep these in the plane?

No.


4) 337's - It has had damage history when it ran off a runway in 1980,
and a fuel truck backed into it in 1998. Do I have to keep the 337's
in the plane?

No.


Thanks for any input you may have.

Required documentation in the aircraft: Airworthiness certificate;
registration certificate; required placards, markings, and other
limitations. Stop here. Anything else optional.

RH wrote:
Hi everyone!

L O N G time lurker, infrequent poster here. I have a question about
what must legally be carried in the airplane for the pilot operating
handbook.

Usually the type certificate spells out what was required at the time
for aircraft paperwork. If you have an older aircraft you should
consider joining a type society for it.

My aircraft has a "owners manual" that is spurious. Quaint reading
on 1950's navigational technology, but not overly useful nor required
by law.

The type certificate spells out two things:

1. An operating limitations book (this is a small book that has the
information on w&b, the appropriate fuels and capacities, etc...
Just a few tables).

2. An equipment list. (essentially the validation of the W&B in
the limitations book).

Also due to several STC's, I have flight manual supplements for
the non-existant flight manual (tip tanks, tail incidence change,
autopilot, IFR GPS).

The Flight Manual is all
you need to have on board,

FAR citation please?



Only on aircraft built since 1979
do you have to carry a serialized POH.

FAR citation please?




As for W&B, just a copy of the latest iteration is required.

FAR citation please?


Jim

RST Engineering wrote:
The Flight Manual is all
you need to have on board,

FAR citation please?



Only on aircraft built since 1979
do you have to carry a serialized POH.

FAR citation please?



As for W&B, just a copy of the latest iteration is required.

FAR citation please?


Jim


Of course, Jim is being polite in poitning out that all three of
those statements are false.

Amusingly, there is no FAR that requires W&B paperwork at all.
Despite the fact that it makes the ARROW mnemonic nice, it's
realling only ARO these days.

As I pointed out, there is no flight manual for a Navion.
There are two documents specifically called out for as well
as a number of limitations placards by the type certificate.

Scott Skylane wrote:


snip

As to your questions, I am not intimately familiar with your particular
AFM, but yes, life was a lot simpler in 1965. The Flight Manual is all
you need to have on board, and it is no doubt a *lot* simpler and more
to the point than modern equivalents. Only on aircraft built since 1979
do you have to carry a serialized POH.

What 91.9 actually says is:

....unless there is available in the aircraft a current approved
Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material,
markings, and placards, or any combination thereof.

So the answer is it depends on whether or not there are limitations
in the flight manual that aren't in something else such as a placard.

As for W&B, just a copy of the latest iteration is required.

Because the current W&B is part of the current limitations.

snip remaining

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

What 91.9 actually says is:

...unless there is available in the aircraft a current approved
Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material,
markings, and placards, or any combination thereof.

....except that we were speaking specifically to a bo that was type
certified, flown, and delivered prior to March 1 1979. There was no such
thing as an "approved flight manual" for light aircraft at the time this
sucker was riveted together.



So the answer is it depends on whether or not there are limitations
in the flight manual that aren't in something else such as a placard.

As for W&B, just a copy of the latest iteration is required.

Because the current W&B is part of the current limitations.

That's true, but nothing in 91.9 requires the carriage of current
limitations on board the aircraft. There are placards required to be on
board by the type certificate, but my read of the tc for the s-model makes
no mention of this being a required document.

Do I keep one on board? You betcha, both a printed version and one on my
pda. Not required.

Jim

RST Engineering wrote:
What 91.9 actually says is:

...unless there is available in the aircraft a current approved
Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material,
markings, and placards, or any combination thereof.

...except that we were speaking specifically to a bo that was type
certified, flown, and delivered prior to March 1 1979. There was no such
thing as an "approved flight manual" for light aircraft at the time this
sucker was riveted together.

True, if it doesn't exist, you're not required to carry it, but I
can see an arguement in what constitutes an approved flight manual
for an old airplne from before the establishement of standards.

So the answer is it depends on whether or not there are limitations
in the flight manual that aren't in something else such as a placard.

As for W&B, just a copy of the latest iteration is required.

Because the current W&B is part of the current limitations.

That's true, but nothing in 91.9 requires the carriage of current
limitations on board the aircraft. There are placards required to be on
board by the type certificate, but my read of the tc for the s-model makes
no mention of this being a required document.

I read it differently.

91.9 (a) says "...with the operating limitatations specified in..."

91.9 (b) (2) says "...is available in the aircraft..."

Do I keep one on board? You betcha, both a printed version and one on my
pda. Not required.

Jim

My barracks lawyer take on all this would be to carry whatever manual
you have, and definitely a W&B, as cheap insurance against getting into
a ****ing contest with some anal retentive bureaucrate.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

My POH is a little book about 200 pages long with some really neat
info in it. You should try to pick one up and give it a read. I keep
it on board in case I have a minor emergency and want to read off the
procedure (my memory cannot be trusted like it used to be).


4) 337's - It has had damage history when it ran off a runway in 1980,
and a fuel truck backed into it in 1998. Do I have to keep the 337's
in the plane?

It was a little more than just running off a runway.