My September 2017 visit to GP Gliders

That article about lifting the max gross for an ultralight to 600 kg was reporting a decision of the EU parliament more than 2 years ago.

On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 11:36:09 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 11:29:16 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 6:06:14 AM UTC-7, jld wrote:
I did not look at this group for a while (busy flying :-) ), and I am surprised at the amount of discussions and in some cases approximate information concerning the GP15.

From all info provided by GP multiple times, no EASA certification is planned for the GP15. It is going to be registered as UL in key EU countries (and experimental in US).
As far as crossing EU borders with UL, some countries indeed require a permit to fly for foreign UL but that is usually very easy to obtain. As a reminder, which is also applicable to certified gliders, the rules also say that it is necessary to file a flight plan when crossing borders!

Concerning GP15 approval as UL in EU, some countries like Germany have requirements concerning ground/flight tests which are rather time and budget consuming (you can't take the business risk to duplicate these tests). It is therefore logical that GP is eventually converging toward a single stable configuration that can meet approval in all targeted countries.
The haters are going to say that GP should have thought about it sooner but the reality is that the rules in EU, concerning below 600 kg aircraft (UL), have changed while GP was in the middle of the making of their gliders!
GP will now be able to rationalize/industrialize their production tools which shall allow increased production rates, reduce the risk of orphan configurations and help them become profitable (if the later does not happen that would be the end of the story anyway).

For people looking for an electric motor glider with motorized performance close to the gas burning versions, GP15 is the only game in town.
GP is on a virtuous circle: reducing weight and surface while increasing aspect ratio!
This makes possible the design of a high performance electric power plant for a total weight (motor/controller/batteries) similar to gas powered powerplant. This is what GP has done.
One side benefit of the lower power motor, coupled with rather large battery capacity, is that it reduces the max current seen by each battery cell. This allows reduced temperature excursion, simplified temperature management and reduced risks of temperature runaway.

We all would enjoy better communication from GP but, let's be honest, the well established companies are not better while taking much less risks than GP.

I feel GP is on the right path and the family is doing its best to manage the situation, COVID did not help. There has been too many delays, especially for the people who have placed orders 2 or 3 years ago, but they have a unique great design which will become a game changer, we hope pretty soon!
600 kg is considered to be an ultralight in the EU? WOW! In the US a powered ultralight is limited to 115 kg (254 lb). This is the weight of an LSA (1320 lbs):

To be considered an ultralight vehicle, a hang glider must weigh less than 155 pounds; while a powered vehicle must weigh less than 254 pounds; is limited to 5 U.S. gallons of fuel; must have a maximum speed of not more than 55 knots; and must have a poweroff stall speed of no more than 24 knots..
https://www.usua.org/Rules/faa103.ht...n%2024%20knots.

In fact, there are no universal EU regulations governing ultralight aircraft - each country has its own regulations (or none at all):
https://ul-center.com/2016/03/09/ult...t-information/

More guidance on this regulatory issue is in:
https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...20Nov%2010.pdf

But it contains this confusing statement:

Gliders without an engine enabling self-launch if 450kgs (two-seat) or 300kgs
(single-seat) are within the scope of Community regulations. Gliders with engines
enabling self-launch and which are 450 / 300kgs MTOM microlight limits are with
the scope of Community regulations.

GP Gliders lists the MTOW of the GP-15 on their website at 470 kg (who knows what the final number will be), putting it well into the EU regulatory claws by 170 kg. So I don't see how they can fly underneath the EU regulatory radar as an ultralight without losing 170 kg of weight, which seems highly unlikely.

Most gliders imported into the US in the experimental category have a type certificate in the EU. Will the FAA be more hesitant in issuing experimental airworthiness certificates to gliders that have not undergone this certification testing? We will just have to wait and see how this unfolds. To date, I do not know of any GP-15 that has been certified anywhere, although the prototype displayed at the convention had a Slovakian registration number which I have previously shown was assigned to another aircraft. Some have said that that aircraft "could" have been deregistered and, then, reassigned to the GP-15, but have produced exactly zero proof that that had occurred.

You imply that I am a "GP hater." I take exception with this characterization - I don't "hate" GP any more or less than any other startup aircraft manufacturer. Maybe they will ultimately deliver the goods they have promised, and maybe they won't. But I do believe that anyone putting down $105,000 on an unfinished glider deserves to be told the whole truth. And "feeling" that they are on the right path does not count as truth.

Tom
Right after posting this I found that the EU has, indeed, raised the ultralight weight limit to 600 kg:

https://flightdesign.com/easa-new-ba...g-ul-aircraft/

Tom

After looking up the EASA regulation, it is even more muddled (https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...gulation.pdf):

8. A Member State may decide to exempt from this Regulation the design, production,
maintenance and operation activities in respect of one or more of the following categories of
aircraft:
(a) aeroplanes, other than unmanned aeroplanes, which have no more than two seats,
measurable stall speed or minimum steady flight speed in landing configuration not
exceeding 45 knots calibrated air speed and a maximum take-off mass (MTOM), as
recorded by the Member State, of no more than 600 kg for aeroplanes not intended to
be operated on water or 650 kg for aeroplanes intended to be operated on water;

Thus, the actual applied regulation can vary from country to country because of the word "may" in the regulation. One would have to check with every aviation authority in each country one chose to fly in.

Tom

Tom,
Good to see you have the patience to read the EASA publications.
Indeed as it was suggested before and I tried to explain, following this EASA 600kg UL limit change opportunity, which dates from 2 years back, national authorities have taken some time to release their updated rules for UL.
Certain countries, like Germany, are using the full option (600kg MTM/ 45kts Vso) while others, like France, are restricting to lower limits (345kg MTM/ 38kts Vso for single seat). This is part of the complexity GP had to sort out. This also means the GP15 will be allowed to fly at different maximum wing loading in function of registration country (45kg/m2 to 60kg/m2). 45 kg/m2 should still be nice when cruising below 200 km/h.
I will be able to share more details on UL national rules if people need them.

experimental, in the past FAA has already approved experimental aircraft without any prior certification. I don't see any reason why this would not be possible for GP. I am sure US GP dealer has all the details.
As far as Slovak registration, the main reason to use it is because Slovak has the easiest approval process for UL in EU. Very little documentation is required. The only counter part is that you need to get a Slovak UL license to fly the aircraft, which is also easy to get. It is not uncommon at all to recycle registration and I don't see the issue.


I agree with you that people who have invested significant amounts deserve to be informed. Maybe they are, I don't know.
My experience has been more with the traditional manufacturers and I have never been thrilled with their communication!
We have yet to see clear communication from SH or JS on the number of years it takes to get delivery of a new V3 or JS3!
This is not an excuse but probably a bad habit from this whole business!

Indeed I don't have the truth but when I try to connect the dots, the near future seems promising. Q1 2021 is 6 months away and if GP is correct should show an increase in production rate and start of deliveries in EU soon after.

Regards.

On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 4:16:03 PM UTC-7, jld wrote:
Tom,
Good to see you have the patience to read the EASA publications.
Indeed as it was suggested before and I tried to explain, following this EASA 600kg UL limit change opportunity, which dates from 2 years back, national authorities have taken some time to release their updated rules for UL..
Certain countries, like Germany, are using the full option (600kg MTM/ 45kts Vso) while others, like France, are restricting to lower limits (345kg MTM/ 38kts Vso for single seat). This is part of the complexity GP had to sort out. This also means the GP15 will be allowed to fly at different maximum wing loading in function of registration country (45kg/m2 to 60kg/m2). 45 kg/m2 should still be nice when cruising below 200 km/h.
I will be able to share more details on UL national rules if people need them.

experimental, in the past FAA has already approved experimental aircraft without any prior certification. I don't see any reason why this would not be possible for GP. I am sure US GP dealer has all the details.
As far as Slovak registration, the main reason to use it is because Slovak has the easiest approval process for UL in EU. Very little documentation is required. The only counter part is that you need to get a Slovak UL license to fly the aircraft, which is also easy to get. It is not uncommon at all to recycle registration and I don't see the issue.


I agree with you that people who have invested significant amounts deserve to be informed. Maybe they are, I don't know.
My experience has been more with the traditional manufacturers and I have never been thrilled with their communication!
We have yet to see clear communication from SH or JS on the number of years it takes to get delivery of a new V3 or JS3!
This is not an excuse but probably a bad habit from this whole business!

Indeed I don't have the truth but when I try to connect the dots, the near future seems promising. Q1 2021 is 6 months away and if GP is correct should show an increase in production rate and start of deliveries in EU soon after.

Regards.

Thanks for the additional clarification, but your Q121 guess is just a WAG (it might be Q1, but the year is in doubt). I am firmly in the camp of "I'll believe it when I see it."

Tom

The Q1 2021 date is from GP website. This is in their August update.

I hope for the community that they will be in track this time.

jld wrote on 8/16/2020 4:16 PM:
Tom,
Good to see you have the patience to read the EASA publications.
Indeed as it was suggested before and I tried to explain, following this EASA 600kg UL limit change opportunity, which dates from 2 years back, national authorities have taken some time to release their updated rules for UL.
Certain countries, like Germany, are using the full option (600kg MTM/ 45kts Vso) while others, like France, are restricting to lower limits (345kg MTM/ 38kts Vso for single seat). This is part of the complexity GP had to sort out. This also means the GP15 will be allowed to fly at different maximum wing loading in function of registration country (45kg/m2 to 60kg/m2). 45 kg/m2 should still be nice when cruising below 200 km/h.
I will be able to share more details on UL national rules if people need them.

experimental, in the past FAA has already approved experimental aircraft without any prior certification. I don't see any reason why this would not be possible for GP. I am sure US GP dealer has all the details.
As far as Slovak registration, the main reason to use it is because Slovak has the easiest approval process for UL in EU. Very little documentation is required. The only counter part is that you need to get a Slovak UL license to fly the aircraft, which is also easy to get. It is not uncommon at all to recycle registration and I don't see the issue.


I agree with you that people who have invested significant amounts deserve to be informed. Maybe they are, I don't know.
My experience has been more with the traditional manufacturers and I have never been thrilled with their communication!
We have yet to see clear communication from SH or JS on the number of years it takes to get delivery of a new V3 or JS3!
This is not an excuse but probably a bad habit from this whole business!

Indeed I don't have the truth but when I try to connect the dots, the near future seems promising. Q1 2021 is 6 months away and if GP is correct should show an increase in production rate and start of deliveries in EU soon after.

Thanks for the remarks. I now understand how the GP15 went from 475 kg MTOW in the
early brochures to 600 Kg a few months ago. I think 500 kg (65 kg/m2 or 13.25
lbs/ft2) is the highest useful weight for all but extreme conditions. I've never
encountered those, but perhaps eastern ridge runners or western wave flyers might.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On 8/16/20 5:16 PM, jld wrote:

Indeed I don't have the truth but when I try to connect the dots, the near future seems promising. Q1 2021 is 6 months away and if GP is correct should show an increase in production rate and start of deliveries in EU soon after.


Unfortunately, this doesn't cover "fool me twenty-seven times . . ."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al2z7t3M9Og

How can they increase their production rate? They haven't stabilized
the design, they're still trying to figure out how to deliver on the
amazing promises they've made.

kinsell wrote on 8/17/2020 12:51 PM:
On 8/16/20 5:16 PM, jld wrote:

Indeed I don't have the truth but when I try to connect the dots, the near
future seems promising. Q1 2021 is 6 months away and if GP is correct should
show an increase in production rate and start of deliveries in EU soon after.


Unfortunately, this doesn't cover "fool me twenty-seven times . . ."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al2z7t3M9Og

How can they increase their production rate?* They haven't stabilized the design,
they're still trying to figure out how to deliver on the amazing promises they've
made.

The latest (Aug 2020) published remarks on the situation are on the GP website at

https://www.gpgliders.com/news/project-update-august

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 1:46:17 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
kinsell wrote on 8/17/2020 12:51 PM:
On 8/16/20 5:16 PM, jld wrote:

Indeed I don't have the truth but when I try to connect the dots, the near
future seems promising. Q1 2021 is 6 months away and if GP is correct should
show an increase in production rate and start of deliveries in EU soon after.


Unfortunately, this doesn't cover "fool me twenty-seven times . . ."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al2z7t3M9Og

How can they increase their production rate? They haven't stabilized the design,
they're still trying to figure out how to deliver on the amazing promises they've
made.
The latest (Aug 2020) published remarks on the situation are on the GP website at

https://www.gpgliders.com/news/project-update-august
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

"We expect to freeze the general design of the GP 14 VELO and GP 15 JETA in Q1 2021"

That means no production will begin until AFTER Q1 2021 - at the earliest. "Expect" is a non-committal word, as opposed to "will." Also, the weight change from 450kg to 600kg clearly wasn't design driven, but regulatory driven, meaning it can't be relied upon.

Tom

2G wrote on 8/17/2020 9:20 PM:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 1:46:17 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
kinsell wrote on 8/17/2020 12:51 PM:
On 8/16/20 5:16 PM, jld wrote:

Indeed I don't have the truth but when I try to connect the dots, the near
future seems promising. Q1 2021 is 6 months away and if GP is correct should
show an increase in production rate and start of deliveries in EU soon after.


Unfortunately, this doesn't cover "fool me twenty-seven times . . ."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al2z7t3M9Og

How can they increase their production rate? They haven't stabilized the design,
they're still trying to figure out how to deliver on the amazing promises they've
made.
The latest (Aug 2020) published remarks on the situation are on the GP website at

https://www.gpgliders.com/news/project-update-august
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

"We expect to freeze the general design of the GP 14 VELO and GP 15 JETA in Q1 2021"

That means no production will begin until AFTER Q1 2021 - at the earliest. "Expect" is a non-committal word, as opposed to "will." Also, the weight change from 450kg to 600kg clearly wasn't design driven, but regulatory driven, meaning it can't be relied upon.

Two gliders are in production, two gliders are being updated for their owners,
according to factory remarks a few weeks ago.

Why do you say their published specifications can not be relied on? Surely, they
could design to a higher weight, but claim the lower weight to simplify licensing
for test flying and advertising purposes, while waiting for the new regulations?
That would be sensible response when you know regulations are going to change, but
the timing and details aren't known.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1