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FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!



 
 
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  #31  
Old August 6th 15, 02:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 5:48:59 PM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
Leaving aside bats vs. eagles for a minute. Here are my experiences with recent contests I've flown. Take it for what it's worth:

Flarm tactical uses: 1) Pre-start gaggles. With a 5 mile radius cylinder, it's not unusual for gaggles to form several miles apart. Flarm immediately tipped me off to a big gaggle forming outside the gate in better air. Spent a lot of heads-down time keeping an eye on that one to see how many, how much higher, etc. 2) Line on the first leg out of the gate. Are a bunch of guys deviating left of course line? Right? This was huge at Dannsville last year. 3) Anyone out there? Anyone? Several times at Mifflin and at Dannsville Flarm showed other gliders on course when I was alone (late starts trying to catch the early starters). Just knowing that there are other gliders not that far ahead is useful information in and of itself.



Those seem like useful things to know. If I understand, you are saying it is bad for pilots to know these useful things - things that they also can know to a great extent by looking out the window and using a diligent scan.

I'm still trying to take in what exactly the excitement is about having less information. The entire history of the sport has been about having better information - variometers, total energy, glide computers, GPS, moving map displays, etc. Those all had detractors, so I'm trying to figure out if this is about something materially different and what, exactly, that is.

Stealth mode is available for anyone to use and it would be a lot easier in terms of contest staff workload (and liability) to leave it as a personal choice. I'd also like to understand what the appeal is, if any, about regulating other people's use. Stealth is symmetrical - you get what you give in terms of information. Why is that not sufficient?

9B
  #32  
Old August 6th 15, 02:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Papa3[_2_]
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

Wow - I would have thought it completely self-evident that having this information via a screen was/is "bad" relative to what we (I) traditionally think of as "the sport of soaring". Not meant to sound sarcastic - just shows how differently people can look at this topic.

Without regurgitating a long post I made about a year back, it's completely obvious that IF we go in the direction of using Flarm as a tactical tool, then the next frontier of development will be highly optimized screens that interpret the data and present it in a way that's optimized for competition. Need to track KS or P7. Check. Two gaggles 3 miles ahead and want to know which has achieved the highest average climb among the 5 gliders involved. Check. Is the glider to the left or right achieving a better L/D over the last 2 minutes. Roger.

Of course, the best display and best software will cost more money, so let's just drop another $10K on top of the $100K we've already got locked up in this silly sport.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to get opinions from people who have actually flown under both scenarios.

P3

  #33  
Old August 6th 15, 03:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

Respectfully Andy, I truly believe a contest is more interesting if it compares one pilot's soaring ability against another's.

A contest with unlimited use of FLARM and/or outside-the-cockpit sources compares pilots' capability to gather, synthesize, and analyze the abilities of multiple people (other pilots through FLARM, weatherman, call DJ on the iPhone, etc) This is decidedly un-birdlike and not as fun.

XC
  #34  
Old August 6th 15, 03:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Springford
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

To provide more input to the discussion - I was never able to get my flarm to go into stealth mode during the contest. I used the $PFLAC,S,PRIV,1 code in the config file and provided that code to two other pilots who when they inserted the code into their config file, it placed their flarm in stealth mode.

No idea why my flarm ignored the command in the config file. To counteract this, I set my range to 2 km and 300 m so I would in principal have the same parameters as those in stealth.

So before we merrily go down the stealth path, let it be known, there are problems with the implementation.

As to the flying, it does remove the tactical value but, like John, I would prefer a greater range than 2 km. It also seems to me that the "climb rate" is considered the biggest advantage to the leeches.

If stealth is going to be implemented, I would prefer to see stealth mode opened up to a larger range, maybe 5 km and hide the climb rate.

As to the question of whether or not Comp ID's are displayed in stealth mode - I like to see the ID's. It makes the race more fun if you can see who you are ahead of and who you are behind. It brings back memories of the days of assigned tasks!
  #35  
Old August 6th 15, 03:31 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 6:49:23 PM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
Wow - I would have thought it completely self-evident that having this information via a screen was/is "bad" relative to what we (I) traditionally think of as "the sport of soaring".


The "sport" often involves highly tactical decisions of followng other gliders. Is it necessarily better that this is limited by the mark IV eybeball, so gliders have to follow very closely to stay with gaggles? Is it not possibly better to have a wider view, a chance to go off on your own and still keep track of others?

Yes, people do use flarm for tactical advantage. Right now, really, the display of where other glders are within 4 miles is the main use. The climb rates, as others have pointed out, are next to useless.

Cost is a non-issue. Advantage is a non-issue. We have the flarms anyway. We either artificially disable their capabilities or we use them at no extra cost for their full ability, and everyone has them. If you're worried about cost, $160,000 new gliders are orders of magniutde more than any electronics we are contemplating.

Let's worry about hypothetical new 100k instruments if and when they arrive.. For now the issue is, do we use the full capabilities of an instrument everyone has anyway or not?

So just how terrible is it to have a slightly better situalational awareness of where the gliders are within 4 miles -- and especially behind where you can't see?

One thing I like about full flarm is it actually breaks up gaggles. people can go off on their own for a bit and not worry about being alone all day.

Yes it's different. Yes it's new. But our job is not historic preservation. Our job is to have fun and enjoy soaring and advance the sport.

What I have not seen in the case for stealth mode is a clear statement of just what is the awful problem that we're trying to fix. Not hypotheticals, what have you actually observed in flarm contests that is a terrible problem requiring banning this interesting new technology?

Yes, you can see start gaggles that you otherwise might have missed unless you sat off the back of KS tail all day. Yes, you can see some other gaggles forming that you might have missed if you weren't looking very hard. So can everyone else. Just how terrible is this?

Personally I find the greater situational awareness of what others are doing makes the contest more enjoyable. The big complaint, especially when we moved from AST to time limited tasks is that nobody knew what anyone else was doing, you went and flew and waited for an 8 pm scoresheet. Well, now you know a lot more about what others are doing.

But that's my view. All I've heard is grumbling about how terrible it is that the sport is changing. That's not a problem. I've heard hypotheticals about new instruments someone might make someday. That's not a problem today. Just what is the real problem we're trying to fix here?

John Cochrane BB




  #36  
Old August 6th 15, 03:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
XC
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

I've seen a pilot in a Regional who didn't practice all year and never was very good locate a top competitor pre-start using FLARM, follow him around the course and win the day in a FAI handicapped class because he was flying a 15m glider and the top competitor was flying an 18m glider. I started with the two of them split off and did my own thing.

XC
  #37  
Old August 6th 15, 04:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 7:50:45 PM UTC-7, XC wrote:
I've seen a pilot in a Regional who didn't practice all year and never was very good locate a top competitor pre-start using FLARM, follow him around the course and win the day in a FAI handicapped class because he was flying a 15m glider and the top competitor was flying an 18m glider. I started with the two of them split off and did my own thing.

XC


I have to agree with JC. In fact I would prefer that the range be greatly increased. If I get a Flarm warning that I was not expecting, I consider that a failure of situational awareness.

The story about a mediocre pilot in a 15m following a top pilot in an 18 meter is quite far fetched - at least where I fly pretty much impossible as described. If performance in this sport comes down to simply aping another's actions, then it isn't quite the skill sport that we thought.
  #38  
Old August 6th 15, 04:37 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 7:50:45 PM UTC-7, XC wrote:
I've seen a pilot in a Regional who didn't practice all year and never was very good locate a top competitor pre-start using FLARM, follow him around the course and win the day in a FAI handicapped class because he was flying a 15m glider and the top competitor was flying an 18m glider. I started with the two of them split off and did my own thing.

XC


Mediocre pilots latched on to top competitors visually in the old days and followed them slavishly around the course. The only difference is now mr. mediocre can afford to get a few miles away, in the old days he had to stay 100 feet away so as not to lose contact. Ask KS how much fun this was.

I'm not convinced that the ability to find other gliders pre-start via flarm (especially without constest ids) is a significant help to a significant problem here. If you're worried about this, banning start announcements would be a bigger help.

Also we're talking about nationals.

John Cochrane
  #39  
Old August 6th 15, 04:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

I noticed that climb rate was often mentioned here as useful tactical information.
Those who flown with PowerFlarm long enough already knows that the climb rate PowerFlarm indicates is more often than not completely wrong. I suspect this is due to the poor sampling rate, or lack of TE compensation or both. I found comparing relative altitude much more accurate and useful.

Ramy
  #40  
Old August 6th 15, 05:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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Default FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

Respect back at ya.

Gathering info. Need the 360 view and to drill quite a bit on specifics. The whats and whys. What we know vs what we suspect vs what we fear. Probabilities and frequencies of things happening. Magnitudes of impact. Call it due diligence.

9B
 




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